RE: Smart Roadster: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
The paddleshift in my little Brabby Fortwo is fine, absolutely fine. It's not brilliant, but its perfectly acceptable imo. The short gearing is more of an issue for me, rather than a paddleshift that takes the same length of time to change as pretty much everything else.
The only real gripe is that you can't rush the changes or block change.
The only real gripe is that you can't rush the changes or block change.
Have to agree with pretty much everything 300hp says.
The stalling issue is a fault - not a normal occurence at all. Its impossible to stall one under normal circumstances.
With regard to roundabouts I also agree. Make sure you are in the right gear BEFORE you accelerate and its never an issue. I regularly drop mine to first on approach and belt out into traffic. Its all about learning how to drive the car to its full potential.
0-60 times are slow but then there are three gear changes involved so its actually a little punchier than you may think. As mentioned the gearing is very short - redline in the first three gears and the next gear will drop only 1000rpm. 3rd - 4th its a 1200rpm drop then 1500 rpm for the next two shifts.
Thats why you can drop it to first on approach to a roundabout - first will take it to around 30mph.
If you're losing power as you try to pull away from a roundabout and you're in second that's simply driver error as the car has detected you have dropped below the optimum speed for second as is trying to compensate for your ineptitude.
These cars are designed to be fool proof for as many people as possible. They change up at redline, change down when the electronics thinks the road speed is too low for the selected gear. Understand that and learn what its programming is and adapt your driving to suit. Then they shine.
Thats what a good driver does - learn the vehicle and adapt driving style to suit.
The stalling issue is a fault - not a normal occurence at all. Its impossible to stall one under normal circumstances.
With regard to roundabouts I also agree. Make sure you are in the right gear BEFORE you accelerate and its never an issue. I regularly drop mine to first on approach and belt out into traffic. Its all about learning how to drive the car to its full potential.
0-60 times are slow but then there are three gear changes involved so its actually a little punchier than you may think. As mentioned the gearing is very short - redline in the first three gears and the next gear will drop only 1000rpm. 3rd - 4th its a 1200rpm drop then 1500 rpm for the next two shifts.
Thats why you can drop it to first on approach to a roundabout - first will take it to around 30mph.
If you're losing power as you try to pull away from a roundabout and you're in second that's simply driver error as the car has detected you have dropped below the optimum speed for second as is trying to compensate for your ineptitude.
These cars are designed to be fool proof for as many people as possible. They change up at redline, change down when the electronics thinks the road speed is too low for the selected gear. Understand that and learn what its programming is and adapt your driving to suit. Then they shine.
Thats what a good driver does - learn the vehicle and adapt driving style to suit.
otolith said:
kambites said:
From what I've read and seen, typical average for Smart drivers is about 45mpg; typical for Elise drivers is 30-35.
My 111R has averaged 30mpg overall since I got it, and it's supposed to have much higher fuel consumption than the Rover engined models - surely people with earlier cars must be getting better than 30-35?300bhp/ton said:
Ok I was messing about with this on the way home. And yes full lock to lock is a good numbur of turns. But without knowing how far this is physically turning the front wheels, it really isn't a useful metric. I'm sure on something like a Land Rover I could wind the lock stops and take half or maybe even a whole turn out lock to lock. But all I'd have done is reduce the amount of lock, not made the steering any quicker.
No idea how this stacks up on the Roadster, but it does have a very good turning circle, even for a vehicle of its size and you don't need to use full lock in car parks. So part of me is inclined to surmise that part of the large lock to lock number is the fact it's actually turning the wheels further than some other cars, rather than being slower.
As an observational take on it. The steering is quite sensitive at 70mph or so. Having much faster steering would only make it twitchy. In fact I'd say it's getting on for that now. Also in tight corners or round abound you don't have to turn the steering wheel any further than you do on any other car. In fact keeping your hands at a quarter past three, you can easily get enough lock without having to let go of the wheel for almost any corner or round about I encountered on my drive home.
If anything, I think you have to move the steering wheel further in the Impreza to get the same amount of direction change.
I've no idea about the actual numbers - I just know that the Roadster has the most dim-witted feeling steering that I've ever come across in a sports car. Even after a considerable amount of time in one, I still find myself applying lock on corner entry, finding I haven't got enough and having to add more. Corners that I can easily take without moving my hands on the wheel in the Elise take half a turn of lock to navigate in the Smart. No idea how this stacks up on the Roadster, but it does have a very good turning circle, even for a vehicle of its size and you don't need to use full lock in car parks. So part of me is inclined to surmise that part of the large lock to lock number is the fact it's actually turning the wheels further than some other cars, rather than being slower.
As an observational take on it. The steering is quite sensitive at 70mph or so. Having much faster steering would only make it twitchy. In fact I'd say it's getting on for that now. Also in tight corners or round abound you don't have to turn the steering wheel any further than you do on any other car. In fact keeping your hands at a quarter past three, you can easily get enough lock without having to let go of the wheel for almost any corner or round about I encountered on my drive home.
If anything, I think you have to move the steering wheel further in the Impreza to get the same amount of direction change.
The steering system is just utter rubbish for the application, IMO; it needs to be at least 25% faster. The standard rack feels like driving a bus and it's a shame because it's the only really weak point in the chassis setup.
I'd love to try a bike engined one with an unassisted quick-rack.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 19th December 09:05
Most of the poor opinions of the gearbox on here seem to be based on Auto mode at junctions, the reality is the Auto mode is so poor I never use it. Others seem frustrated with their inability to make progress with the stick shift in manual mode, well again the reality is that these cars are so short geared that you will be reaching for the gear stick all the time meaning that you often miss the ideal moment to shift cogs.
Paddle shift is an absolute must on these cars, as Dan says it's not a dual clutch instantaneous system but it is as quick as a normal manual shift. To really improve things many ECU remaps will speed up the clutch actuator, alternatively you could modify your car (I believe that does happen from time to time on PH) with an Optigear Clutch Actuator. Optigear also supply the smaller Brabus V6 style steering wheel that should help with the low geared rack.
http://www.optigear.de/index.php?language=en
Paddle shift is an absolute must on these cars, as Dan says it's not a dual clutch instantaneous system but it is as quick as a normal manual shift. To really improve things many ECU remaps will speed up the clutch actuator, alternatively you could modify your car (I believe that does happen from time to time on PH) with an Optigear Clutch Actuator. Optigear also supply the smaller Brabus V6 style steering wheel that should help with the low geared rack.
http://www.optigear.de/index.php?language=en
kambites said:
I've no idea about the actual numbers - I just know that the Roadster has the most dim-witted feeling steering that I've ever come across in a sports car. Even after a considerable amount of time in one, I still find myself applying lock on corner entry, finding I haven't got enough and having to add more.
The steering system is just utter rubbish for the application, IMO; it needs to be at least 25% faster. The standard rack feels like driving a bus and it's a shame because it's the only really weak point in the chassis setup.
I'd truly love to ride in a car with you. I know you know your stuff and respect your opinion, so I'd love to understand this more. But I just don't get the same problem. The steering to me doesn't feel like reacts slower than my TR7 or the MGF's I've owned or pretty much anything else I've been in. The steering wheel is quite large and took some getting used to, but I actually think I prefer it to a smaller one now. My only personal gripe is I think the steering is a little too smooth at low speed and lacking feel in terms of lateral grip of the tyres. But I think it's still better than most fwd cars I've driven and doesn't suffer the continual noise fwd drives suffer through the wheel. The steering system is just utter rubbish for the application, IMO; it needs to be at least 25% faster. The standard rack feels like driving a bus and it's a shame because it's the only really weak point in the chassis setup.
I own a Brabus Roadster Coupe and have done for over 5 years. I have thoroughly enjoyed mine and had lots and lots of fun.
Yes the gearbox is rubbish - especially in auto mode - so I don't use auto mode. You learn to drive the car to the best of it's capabilities.
Steering - yes it lacks feel, but by disconnecting the electric power steering, you get a much better driving experience. The car is so light, you don't need power steering.
Leaks. I have been lucky and the chap I bought it from had the 'upgrade' done on the bulk head and thus far, it's been dry. I hired an Elise ages before getting the BRC and after a reasonably heavy shower, the passenger footwell had filled up!
They are quirky little cars, and you have to be realistic about the performance you are going to get from 700cc engine. They are fun, economical and, well, a bit unique. Drive it like it's a Smart Brabus Roadster, don't compare it to a porsche or Elise, they don't compare.
I did have dreams about sticking a Hyabusa Engine in the back of mine with a much better sequential shift and a different steering rack. It never left my dreams but I think it would have been hilarious.
Yes the gearbox is rubbish - especially in auto mode - so I don't use auto mode. You learn to drive the car to the best of it's capabilities.
Steering - yes it lacks feel, but by disconnecting the electric power steering, you get a much better driving experience. The car is so light, you don't need power steering.
Leaks. I have been lucky and the chap I bought it from had the 'upgrade' done on the bulk head and thus far, it's been dry. I hired an Elise ages before getting the BRC and after a reasonably heavy shower, the passenger footwell had filled up!
They are quirky little cars, and you have to be realistic about the performance you are going to get from 700cc engine. They are fun, economical and, well, a bit unique. Drive it like it's a Smart Brabus Roadster, don't compare it to a porsche or Elise, they don't compare.
I did have dreams about sticking a Hyabusa Engine in the back of mine with a much better sequential shift and a different steering rack. It never left my dreams but I think it would have been hilarious.
kambites said:
otolith said:
kambites said:
From what I've read and seen, typical average for Smart drivers is about 45mpg; typical for Elise drivers is 30-35.
My 111R has averaged 30mpg overall since I got it, and it's supposed to have much higher fuel consumption than the Rover engined models - surely people with earlier cars must be getting better than 30-35?
RAClNG SNAKE said:
Most of the poor opinions of the gearbox on here seem to be based on Auto mode at junctions, the reality is the Auto mode is so poor I never use it. Others seem frustrated with their inability to make progress with the stick shift in manual mode, well again the reality is that these cars are so short geared that you will be reaching for the gear stick all the time meaning that you often miss the ideal moment to shift cogs.
Exactly this. I find Auto mode changes gear far too late every time, it leaves you hanging without drive midway through a junction and it makes the engine thirstier. I only ever engage Auto mode if I'm crawling in traffic and I can't be bothered moving up and down the gears myself. The "hanging without drive" problem is easy to overcome. You just change gear a little earlier than you would in a manual. And if you know you're going to be slowing for a junction or roundabout, you just change down two gears instead of one - that way you're in the correct gear when you move off, and you can still stop if you need to. As I said earlier, it's all a matter of working with the gearbox and not expecting it to work like a manual.
I bought my Roadie in 2007, and although I've been tempted to sell it at times, it's been for purely practical reasons. I don't really need two cars, it takes up space, I have to tax and insure it, I can't transport both dogs in it, etc. But for the money it costs me to run each year, and the amount of fun I have driving it, I can't bear to part with it. I had the remap done when I first bought the car, so the power delivery is much more linear than with the original map.
A friend of a friend brought his Roadie round last year, and just for fun we went out in both cars. I found his standard Roadie to be a nice, relaxing (read: not very quick) drive. It was okay, but I didn't like the power delivery much - it doesn't really get going until over 4000 revs and that's very limiting. But then we went out in mine. Much giggling ensued - and not from me.
The remap really does make a massive difference - not only to power delivery, but also to transmission response. And the car is really good fun to drive, it's like a road-going kart! It's very chuckable and great fun to drive - and unlike other cars I've had, you don't need to be doing illegal speeds to have a really good time driving it. otolith said:
But surely the fuel consumption savings need to go with the VED savings and be put into the HGF fund?
You jest, but to an extent that's true! When I bought mine, I worked out I could afford to replace the head gasket about once every nine months in the savings in fuel and VED over a 111R. One failure in six years, so I'm up! 
Roy C said:
johnniek said:
Well i'm amazed at the vitriol and how hasty some people are on here..
Really. THIS IS PH! It's loaded with cranks who hate the un-hateable and love the unlovable. Get used to it. The for2 had problems with engines requiring early rebuilds but the Roadster's has been shown to be pretty bomb-proof. Hell, they use it in air-planes so it has to be reliable ;-)
Also, someone mentioned it didn't 'feel' fast - this is the ONE thing the Roadster does extremely well - the handling, cornering and speed you can carry and the fact you are sat a six inch off the floor means you can have real fun at legal speeds. It might not actually be fast, but it feels like it is. Pretty much every review ever has agreed on this.
I recently had a drive in a Puma 1.7 and it just didn't provide any excitement - we were on a twisty road and the owner told me to slow down as I was going to kill them - I looked at the speedo and we were going 80 but it just didn't feel like it was moving at any pace. It was a nice, easy, leisurely drive, but I don't want a car that feels like white goods (but I understand many do).
It's just the usual PH gobby regulars - half of which have never sat in a Roady let alone driven one for any amount of time, but they *know* all it's faults.
They aren't the perfect car for everyone but the amount of s
t spouted about them on here is laughable.300bhp/ton said:
Ok I was messing about with this on the way home. And yes full lock to lock is a good numbur of turns. But without knowing how far this is physically turning the front wheels, it really isn't a useful metric. I'm sure on something like a Land Rover I could wind the lock stops and take half or maybe even a whole turn out lock to lock. But all I'd have done is reduce the amount of lock, not made the steering any quicker.
No idea how this stacks up on the Roadster, but it does have a very good turning circle, even for a vehicle of its size and you don't need to use full lock in car parks. So part of me is inclined to surmise that part of the large lock to lock number is the fact it's actually turning the wheels further than some other cars, rather than being slower.
This got lost among the doldrums, but is definitely worthy of 'classic 300bhp waffle' status.No idea how this stacks up on the Roadster, but it does have a very good turning circle, even for a vehicle of its size and you don't need to use full lock in car parks. So part of me is inclined to surmise that part of the large lock to lock number is the fact it's actually turning the wheels further than some other cars, rather than being slower.
If in doubt, or unable to defend your choice of car, just make something up.
300bhp/ton said:
The voice of the misinformed and someone who doesn't appear to have even sat in one.
I'd need to check the exact figures but I think smart sold 70,000 Roadster in 3 years. How many Elise's does Lotus manage in that time frame?
300bhp/ton - I think the exact figures are in the article: "That it sank relatively without a trace after just two and a bit years later with worldwide sales of 43,000 - 6,500 of them in the UK". Doughnut.I'd need to check the exact figures but I think smart sold 70,000 Roadster in 3 years. How many Elise's does Lotus manage in that time frame?
Dave200 said:
300bhp/ton said:
Ok I was messing about with this on the way home. And yes full lock to lock is a good numbur of turns. But without knowing how far this is physically turning the front wheels, it really isn't a useful metric. I'm sure on something like a Land Rover I could wind the lock stops and take half or maybe even a whole turn out lock to lock. But all I'd have done is reduce the amount of lock, not made the steering any quicker.
No idea how this stacks up on the Roadster, but it does have a very good turning circle, even for a vehicle of its size and you don't need to use full lock in car parks. So part of me is inclined to surmise that part of the large lock to lock number is the fact it's actually turning the wheels further than some other cars, rather than being slower.
This got lost among the doldrums, but is definitely worthy of 'classic 300bhp waffle' status.No idea how this stacks up on the Roadster, but it does have a very good turning circle, even for a vehicle of its size and you don't need to use full lock in car parks. So part of me is inclined to surmise that part of the large lock to lock number is the fact it's actually turning the wheels further than some other cars, rather than being slower.
If in doubt, or unable to defend your choice of car, just make something up.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 19th December 13:29
Back in 2008, I felt that the Smart roadster was a good idea in theory, at least but was wary about the gearbox. I tried a top-of-the-range, low mileage, one owner Brabus Xclusive Roadster-Coupé.
After a long test drive on all sorts of roads, despite everything else being fine for road use, I came to the conclusion that I just could not live with that gearbox.
I still felt drawn to it though, as my then current fun car was simply too extreme, being too track-biassed (supercharged Exige Cup). A year later, I took the plunge and bought an identical Smart to the one I tried.
It took me 3 (three) months (!) to learn to live with the gearbox, but now I love the car so much that I've even considered stockpiling them
I hoped that my wife and daughter would learn to love it too, but they both don't, both emphatically declaring instead their love of our Clio 200 RS with Cup chassis.
Obviously, they are quite different cars, but I think it is the Smart is a keeper. (Not presently planning on selling the Clio either though!)
After a long test drive on all sorts of roads, despite everything else being fine for road use, I came to the conclusion that I just could not live with that gearbox.
I still felt drawn to it though, as my then current fun car was simply too extreme, being too track-biassed (supercharged Exige Cup). A year later, I took the plunge and bought an identical Smart to the one I tried.
It took me 3 (three) months (!) to learn to live with the gearbox, but now I love the car so much that I've even considered stockpiling them
I hoped that my wife and daughter would learn to love it too, but they both don't, both emphatically declaring instead their love of our Clio 200 RS with Cup chassis.
Obviously, they are quite different cars, but I think it is the Smart is a keeper. (Not presently planning on selling the Clio either though!)
Europa1 said:
300bhp/ton - I think the exact figures are in the article: "That it sank relatively without a trace after just two and a bit years later with worldwide sales of 43,000 - 6,500 of them in the UK". Doughnut.
Yes my mistake, I got muddled with the numbers. That said, selling 43,000 cars of this type in just two and a bit years isn't too bad going.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff