RE: Smart Roadster: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
C70R said:
Hang on. Since when did that stop you from spamming the hell out of every thread relating to the New Defender, just to tell us (repeatedly) that you didn't like it and that it wasn't a Defender?
Begone with you, wally.
Not once have I ever said I didn't like the new Defender. But don't let facts get in the way or your accusations and delusions... Begone with you, wally.
PS -- I actually said the opposite
thewarlock said:
I spent a couple of weeks in one of these a few years ago and was surprised.
I thought the automated manual in the Citroen C2 was the worst gearbox I'd ever use til I used this.
Like the idea of a converted one of these though. Bike engined, or maybe a Honda B16, although if I was gonna do that, I'd probably start with a Beat.
How did yo drive it and how did you try and change gear? Without wanting to sound insulting, it was probably 100% driver induced.I thought the automated manual in the Citroen C2 was the worst gearbox I'd ever use til I used this.
Like the idea of a converted one of these though. Bike engined, or maybe a Honda B16, although if I was gonna do that, I'd probably start with a Beat.
1. Never use the automatic mode. It was terribly programmed.
2. Don't try and drive it like an automatic
3. Don't try and drive it like a Playstation game
4. DO drive it like a normal manual car, i.e. push the lever to change gear at the point you'd normally start and push the clutch pedal down (then basically do the same motions for the same period of time). Ensure you also lift off the throttle (not loads, but as you would for performance driving). Do this and gearshifts will be smooth and you'll always be in the correct gear. and it won't feel remotely sluggish from a transmission point of view.
I know it is hard to admit driver fault (esp on a forum/internet). But there is no reason the gearbox couldn't work. If it didn't for you, it was completely down to how you where driving it. But you shouldn't feel bad, lots of people can't drive manuals very well either. The Smart needed a similar but slightly different skill set and it did take time to learn. And of course to learn it, you needed to first understand how it worked and why it worked that way. Too many people think it is either a normal auto or a DCT style gearbox. And it is neither and needs to be driven in a manner differently to those.
But ultimately this is what made the gearbox so rewarding. It required you as a driver to put the right inputs in at the right time. And get it wrong and it would punish you (just like a manual box does if you miss a gear). I've driven the latter smart cars with the DCT box (453 ForTwo) and while it was "arguably" better in some areas. It completely lacked the involvement and reward that the old box offered. So much so I went with the 5 speed manual instead when buying one.
Wish I'd done some video of my Roadster showing how well they could change gear. But alas this is all I have and you can't hear or see the gear changes at all and the car is now long since gone.
300bhp/ton said:
thewarlock said:
I spent a couple of weeks in one of these a few years ago and was surprised.
I thought the automated manual in the Citroen C2 was the worst gearbox I'd ever use til I used this.
Like the idea of a converted one of these though. Bike engined, or maybe a Honda B16, although if I was gonna do that, I'd probably start with a Beat.
How did yo drive it and how did you try and change gear? Without wanting to sound insulting, it was probably 100% driver induced.I thought the automated manual in the Citroen C2 was the worst gearbox I'd ever use til I used this.
Like the idea of a converted one of these though. Bike engined, or maybe a Honda B16, although if I was gonna do that, I'd probably start with a Beat.
1. Never use the automatic mode. It was terribly programmed.
2. Don't try and drive it like an automatic
3. Don't try and drive it like a Playstation game
4. DO drive it like a normal manual car, i.e. push the lever to change gear at the point you'd normally start and push the clutch pedal down (then basically do the same motions for the same period of time). Ensure you also lift off the throttle (not loads, but as you would for performance driving). Do this and gearshifts will be smooth and you'll always be in the correct gear. and it won't feel remotely sluggish from a transmission point of view.
I know it is hard to admit driver fault (esp on a forum/internet). But there is no reason the gearbox couldn't work. If it didn't for you, it was completely down to how you where driving it. But you shouldn't feel bad, lots of people can't drive manuals very well either. The Smart needed a similar but slightly different skill set and it did take time to learn. And of course to learn it, you needed to first understand how it worked and why it worked that way. Too many people think it is either a normal auto or a DCT style gearbox. And it is neither and needs to be driven in a manner differently to those.
But ultimately this is what made the gearbox so rewarding. It required you as a driver to put the right inputs in at the right time. And get it wrong and it would punish you (just like a manual box does if you miss a gear). I've driven the latter smart cars with the DCT box (453 ForTwo) and while it was "arguably" better in some areas. It completely lacked the involvement and reward that the old box offered. So much so I went with the 5 speed manual instead when buying one.
Wish I'd done some video of my Roadster showing how well they could change gear. But alas this is all I have and you can't hear or see the gear changes at all and the car is now long since gone.
300bhp/ton said:
How did yo drive it and how did you try and change gear? Without wanting to sound insulting, it was probably 100% driver induced.
1. Never use the automatic mode. It was terribly programmed.
2. Don't try and drive it like an automatic
3. Don't try and drive it like a Playstation game
4. DO drive it like a normal manual car, i.e. push the lever to change gear at the point you'd normally start and push the clutch pedal down (then basically do the same motions for the same period of time). Ensure you also lift off the throttle (not loads, but as you would for performance driving). Do this and gearshifts will be smooth and you'll always be in the correct gear. and it won't feel remotely sluggish from a transmission point of view.
I know it is hard to admit driver fault (esp on a forum/internet). But there is no reason the gearbox couldn't work. If it didn't for you, it was completely down to how you where driving it. But you shouldn't feel bad, lots of people can't drive manuals very well either. The Smart needed a similar but slightly different skill set and it did take time to learn. And of course to learn it, you needed to first understand how it worked and why it worked that way. Too many people think it is either a normal auto or a DCT style gearbox. And it is neither and needs to be driven in a manner differently to those.
But ultimately this is what made the gearbox so rewarding. It required you as a driver to put the right inputs in at the right time. And get it wrong and it would punish you (just like a manual box does if you miss a gear). I've driven the latter smart cars with the DCT box (453 ForTwo) and while it was "arguably" better in some areas. It completely lacked the involvement and reward that the old box offered. So much so I went with the 5 speed manual instead when buying one.
Wish I'd done some video of my Roadster showing how well they could change gear. But alas this is all I have and you can't hear or see the gear changes at all and the car is now long since gone.
This is hilarious.1. Never use the automatic mode. It was terribly programmed.
2. Don't try and drive it like an automatic
3. Don't try and drive it like a Playstation game
4. DO drive it like a normal manual car, i.e. push the lever to change gear at the point you'd normally start and push the clutch pedal down (then basically do the same motions for the same period of time). Ensure you also lift off the throttle (not loads, but as you would for performance driving). Do this and gearshifts will be smooth and you'll always be in the correct gear. and it won't feel remotely sluggish from a transmission point of view.
I know it is hard to admit driver fault (esp on a forum/internet). But there is no reason the gearbox couldn't work. If it didn't for you, it was completely down to how you where driving it. But you shouldn't feel bad, lots of people can't drive manuals very well either. The Smart needed a similar but slightly different skill set and it did take time to learn. And of course to learn it, you needed to first understand how it worked and why it worked that way. Too many people think it is either a normal auto or a DCT style gearbox. And it is neither and needs to be driven in a manner differently to those.
But ultimately this is what made the gearbox so rewarding. It required you as a driver to put the right inputs in at the right time. And get it wrong and it would punish you (just like a manual box does if you miss a gear). I've driven the latter smart cars with the DCT box (453 ForTwo) and while it was "arguably" better in some areas. It completely lacked the involvement and reward that the old box offered. So much so I went with the 5 speed manual instead when buying one.
Wish I'd done some video of my Roadster showing how well they could change gear. But alas this is all I have and you can't hear or see the gear changes at all and the car is now long since gone.
Thanks for that.
300bhp/ton said:
Ensure you also lift off the throttle (not loads, but as you would for performance driving). Do this and gearshifts will be smooth and you'll always be in the correct gear. and it won't feel remotely sluggish from a transmission point of view.
I've seen you post similar numerous times. Much as I love the Roadster and ForTwo, it will never be true - downshifts can always be sluggish as you can't control the speed that the clutch disengages. You can 100% drive around it - early downshifts when braking, for example, and it's fine. Fun even, if you're up for a different style of driving. But if you want to drop a couple of gears for an overtake, while holding a steady speed, it will always be an incredibly slow shift. Drive a manual, er, manual, and you adapt the speed of gearchanges depending on what you want to achieve - from slow and lazy driving, to dropping the clutch and nailing it. The ECU can't predict what you're going to do in advance, so you get the default gearchange whatever you do. Which if well driven, will be smooth, fine on upshifts, fine on early downshifts, but slow under the circumstances described. This was always its downfall in reviews. People like Clarkson expected to drop a few gears and floor it - do that and all you'll get is revs.
I'd also suggest people don't lift off, as from experience in countless Smarts and tens of thousands of miles, it's actually smoother - the ECU cuts power either way, so by lifting off you're simply second guessing when it'll be fed back in again - too soon and you'll get a load of revs, too late and you're simply slowing yourself down unnecessarily. Time it perfectly, and you'll coincide with the ECU feeding the power in once again, so zero benefit from lifting off. Talk to any Smart specialist, and they'll tell you to keep your foot down.
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Friday 6th May 00:13
Mine. One of the slowest cars I've owned, bar other Roadster and ForTwo. Crap build quality in many ways. Relatively numb steering. Absolutely love it to bits.
Like little else on the road this side of the 1960s, super-cheap to run, generally something to tinker with. Never fails to put a smile on my face.
pthelazyjourno said:
300bhp/ton said:
Ensure you also lift off the throttle (not loads, but as you would for performance driving). Do this and gearshifts will be smooth and you'll always be in the correct gear. and it won't feel remotely sluggish from a transmission point of view.
I've seen you post similar numerous times. Much as I love the Roadster and ForTwo, it will never be true - downshifts can always be sluggish as you can't control the speed that the clutch disengages. You can 100% drive around it - early downshifts when braking, for example, and it's fine. Fun even, if you're up for a different style of driving. But if you want to drop a couple of gears for an overtake, while holding a steady speed, it will always be an incredibly slow shift. Drive a manual, er, manual, and you adapt the speed of gearchanges depending on what you want to achieve - from slow and lazy driving, to dropping the clutch and nailing it. The ECU can't predict what you're going to do in advance, so you get the default gearchange whatever you do. Which if well driven, will be smooth, fine on upshifts, fine on early downshifts, but slow under the circumstances described. This was always its downfall in reviews. People like Clarkson expected to drop a few gears and floor it - do that and all you'll get is revs.
I'd also suggest people don't lift off, as from experience in countless Smarts and tens of thousands of miles, it's actually smoother - the ECU cuts power either way, so by lifting off you're simply second guessing when it'll be fed back in again - too soon and you'll get a load of revs, too late and you're simply slowing yourself down unnecessarily. Time it perfectly, and you'll coincide with the ECU feeding the power in once again, so zero benefit from lifting off. Talk to any Smart specialist, and they'll tell you to keep your foot down.
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Friday 6th May 00:13
Edited by biggbn on Friday 6th May 05:00
pthelazyjourno said:
Mine. One of the slowest cars I've owned, bar other Roadster and ForTwo. Crap build quality in many ways. Relatively numb steering. Absolutely love it to bits.
Like little else on the road this side of the 1960s, super-cheap to run, generally something to tinker with. Never fails to put a smile on my face.
biggbn said:
Lovely wee car!! I'd really like another smart!
Thanks! Along with a few Elises, the Roadster is the only car I've ever bought more than one of. They're just infectious if you understand them. I'll be keeping this one until petrol cars are priced or legislated off the roads.
biggbn said:
pthelazyjourno said:
Mine. One of the slowest cars I've owned, bar other Roadster and ForTwo. Crap build quality in many ways. Relatively numb steering. Absolutely love it to bits.
Like little else on the road this side of the 1960s, super-cheap to run, generally something to tinker with. Never fails to put a smile on my face.
WG04 CXT - maybe it's still out there somewhere...
pthelazyjourno said:
I've seen you post similar numerous times. Much as I love the Roadster and ForTwo, it will never be true - downshifts can always be sluggish as you can't control the speed that the clutch disengages.
You can 100% drive around it - early downshifts when braking, for example, and it's fine. Fun even, if you're up for a different style of driving. But if you want to drop a couple of gears for an overtake, while holding a steady speed, it will always be an incredibly slow shift.
I hear where you are coming from. But I feel there is more to it.You can 100% drive around it - early downshifts when braking, for example, and it's fine. Fun even, if you're up for a different style of driving. But if you want to drop a couple of gears for an overtake, while holding a steady speed, it will always be an incredibly slow shift.
For downshifting in the manner you speak, you'd probably be better off lifting instead of keeping a constant throttle. You can also double pump the shift leaver (think how you would double click a right mouse button to open something, that kind of cadence)., The box will react a lot faster than most will expect. Using the paddles (if equipped, mine didn't have them) might be harder than using the lever for this. You needed to be positive, not too slow and not too quick, else it wouldn't work. And required practice.
I also found it helped to visualise in your mind the motions of driving a manual, i.e. pushing the clutch pedal down, reaching for the gearstick, moving gates and lifting your foot up off the clutch pedal. Do this and the total amount of time for the 'shift' is very much on par with a manual. Just the sequence is different and your start point isn't quite the same.
In a manual to make say a block change (4th to 2nd), it requires more time than most would probably reckon. The entire process, not just the moving of the gearstick.
I'm by no means saying it was perfect. Just that it was highly rewarding getting it right. And there was very much a technique to get the best from it. I did a lot of testing, but it was in a time before such easy digital video. I do know that under the right conditions the car would shift gears quicker than I could get my hand back to the steering wheel from the gear lever for the vast majority of times.
My car was remapped which may have helped too. I had a higher rev limiter so you never hit the rev limit at the red line (which would kill gearchange speeds) and I had much more torque in the mid rpm from the turbo. So you maybe didn't always need to drop as many gears.
pthelazyjourno said:
Drive a manual, er, manual, and you adapt the speed of gearchanges depending on what you want to achieve - from slow and lazy driving, to dropping the clutch and nailing it. The ECU can't predict what you're going to do in advance, so you get the default gearchange whatever you do. Which if well driven, will be smooth, fine on upshifts, fine on early downshifts, but slow under the circumstances described. This was always its downfall in reviews. People like Clarkson expected to drop a few gears and floor it - do that and all you'll get is revs.
I'm glad you mentioned the Clarkson review. I haven't seen it for a long time. But my lasting memory is of him saying 'floor it, then drop some gears'. Or at least something along those lines.This is really important, as it is the sequence he is mentioning, as in accelerating first, then trying to change gear for a lower one. If you think about it, in a normal manual this would not work and would be a very bad way of trying to increase speed. What you should be doing is shifting BEFORE you floor the accelerator. I suspect a number of people get this wrong in the Smart's however. And doing this wrong in a Roadster would seem to almost confuse the gearbox and make it slower than normal.
pthelazyjourno said:
I'd also suggest people don't lift off, as from experience in countless Smarts and tens of thousands of miles, it's actually smoother - the ECU cuts power either way, so by lifting off you're simply second guessing when it'll be fed back in again - too soon and you'll get a load of revs, too late and you're simply slowing yourself down unnecessarily. Time it perfectly, and you'll coincide with the ECU feeding the power in once again, so zero benefit from lifting off. Talk to any Smart specialist, and they'll tell you to keep your foot down.
Again I did a lot of testing with this and would have to disagree through personal experience. What you do with the throttle pedal when changing gear has a massive effect on what it does, how quickly and how smoothly. The remap may again help here, but I did a lot of miles pre remap also.When I say lift... it was a dynamic thing. So it would depend on which gear, what rpm and how open the throttle was. But if at wide open throttle and shifting at the red line. It was more of a pulse than a full off lift. But other times it was more of a full lift and back on. How you reapplied the throttle, such as stamping on it or rolling onto would also impact the shifting & smoothness.
If you haven't spent time messing about with it, I'd highly recommend you give it ago.
For reference, I get to drive a lot of vehicle types. Such as many tractors, not that the Smart is anything remotely close to a tractor!!!
But many tractors use electronic splitters which operate in a similar fashion to the Roadsters 3 speed manual box with electronic over drive on each gear. Many of the techniques are cross compatible. We have a JCB Fastrac on the farm, 6 speed H box with a High/Low electronic splitter on each gear (12 gears). Most people don't like driving it much because they find it very jerky to drive. Which it can be, but it is all in the technique. It can be driven buttery smooth, using many of the same principles I used with the Roadster. But like the Roadster, it is brutal and punishes you should you get it wrong. But it too is highly rewarding to get right.
300bhp/ton said:
Again I did a lot of testing with this and would have to disagree through personal experience. What you do with the throttle pedal when changing gear has a massive effect on what it does, how quickly and how smoothly. The remap may again help here, but I did a lot of miles pre remap also.
When I say lift... it was a dynamic thing. So it would depend on which gear, what rpm and how open the throttle was. But if at wide open throttle and shifting at the red line. It was more of a pulse than a full off lift. But other times it was more of a full lift and back on. How you reapplied the throttle, such as stamping on it or rolling onto would also impact the shifting & smoothness.
If you haven't spent time messing about with it, I'd highly recommend you give it ago.
For reference, I get to drive a lot of vehicle types. Such as many tractors, not that the Smart is anything remotely close to a tractor!!! But many tractors use electronic splitters which operate in a similar fashion to the Roadsters 3 speed manual box with electronic over drive on each gear. Many of the techniques are cross compatible. We have a JCB Fastrac on the farm, 6 speed H box with a High/Low electronic splitter on each gear (12 gears). Most people don't like driving it much because they find it very jerky to drive. Which it can be, but it is all in the technique. It can be driven buttery smooth, using many of the same principles I used with the Roadster. But like the Roadster, it is brutal and punishes you should you get it wrong. But it too is highly rewarding to get right.
Appreciate the lengthy and considered reply, but the point about shift time is fundamentally wrong. Downshifts are measurable and noticeably slower in both time and distance, however you drive it, at least in terms of actually being able to apply power again. An example: I can downshift for a speed bump when I reach it in a manual car. I can drop the clutch and accelerate immediately after. When I say lift... it was a dynamic thing. So it would depend on which gear, what rpm and how open the throttle was. But if at wide open throttle and shifting at the red line. It was more of a pulse than a full off lift. But other times it was more of a full lift and back on. How you reapplied the throttle, such as stamping on it or rolling onto would also impact the shifting & smoothness.
If you haven't spent time messing about with it, I'd highly recommend you give it ago.
For reference, I get to drive a lot of vehicle types. Such as many tractors, not that the Smart is anything remotely close to a tractor!!!
But many tractors use electronic splitters which operate in a similar fashion to the Roadsters 3 speed manual box with electronic over drive on each gear. Many of the techniques are cross compatible. We have a JCB Fastrac on the farm, 6 speed H box with a High/Low electronic splitter on each gear (12 gears). Most people don't like driving it much because they find it very jerky to drive. Which it can be, but it is all in the technique. It can be driven buttery smooth, using many of the same principles I used with the Roadster. But like the Roadster, it is brutal and punishes you should you get it wrong. But it too is highly rewarding to get right.No amount of feathering the accelerator, shifter, or any other driving techniques will enable you to do the same in the roadster - the actuator is only designed to feed in the power as smoothly as possible (thankfully, or everyday driving would also be a nightmare) - it will never just dump the power back in again as it doesn't work that way.
As such, you drive around it. You downshift 20 yards **before** the speed bump, or apex, or whatever else it is you're slowing down for, anticipating the fact you're going to want to accelerate again in a few seconds time. That's the only way you can drive a Smart effectively - downshift any later and the actuator will be juggling the clutch while you're attempting to apply power.
We allude to the same point - as you say, the start point isn't the same. But to me that means it's categorically and demonstrably slower. Remapped cars are marginally better, and the Roadster itself is a heck of a lot better than the 450, but there are always limitations - if somebody mapped it to get close to the quickest manual changes it would be hugely unpleasant and borderline undriveable the majority of the time.
We'll agree to disagree on how to get the smoothest or quickest shifts, but I've had Smarts for years and a surprising number of miles (had one back when you had yours), and have tried every way of driving them imaginable. I don't have any issues with smoothness either going up or down the box. I also use the paddles when changing down a couple of gears, as find they're marginally quicker than the stick. Don't get me wrong - I'm not somebody who wants a regular box in the Roadster. Actually think it adds to the character, and is perfectly easy to drive around the quirks, but it will always be flawed in specific situations. Just like the Roadster itself really.
What it will never be is bland.
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Friday 6th May 10:54
I'm not sure that the fact that some people would actually enjoy, for example, a massive dildo sticking out of the middle of the driver's seat, means that said rubber cock enhanced seat is not in fact an awful seat that most people would hate.
Likewise, the fact that some drivers enjoy working around a gearbox's manifest inadequacies does not stop it being an objectively awful gearbox, nor that people who simply want an adequate gearbox and as a result hate it are awful drivers.
Likewise, the fact that some drivers enjoy working around a gearbox's manifest inadequacies does not stop it being an objectively awful gearbox, nor that people who simply want an adequate gearbox and as a result hate it are awful drivers.
otolith said:
I'm not sure that the fact that some people would actually enjoy, for example, a massive dildo sticking out of the middle of the driver's seat, means that said rubber cock enhanced seat is not in fact an awful seat that most people would hate.
Likewise, the fact that some drivers enjoy working around a gearbox's manifest inadequacies does not stop it being an objectively awful gearbox, nor that people who simply want an adequate gearbox and as a result hate it are awful drivers.
Lol. Objectively awful is harsh - it's just different and can't be used as you would a regular gearbox. Likewise, the fact that some drivers enjoy working around a gearbox's manifest inadequacies does not stop it being an objectively awful gearbox, nor that people who simply want an adequate gearbox and as a result hate it are awful drivers.
Ignore the auto mode (which is f
king awful) and I'd take it over a regular slushbox any day of the week, for example, as I don't like the way they try to second guess what you're doing. That doesn't make them objectively awful - just different. TBH it feels every bit a solution designed for a town car, which it was - it's out of its element if you drive at 8/10ths or above, but it's perfectly fine below that. The whole car feels a bit like that to me though - it's not polished when you absolutely rag it. It's a bit like a classic in that respect - a lot of amusement to be had in various circumstances, but a bit ragged anywhere near the limit.
It just needs a different mindset to enjoy. If you drive it expecting it to have a regular gearshift, or pining after a regular gearshift, you'll be sourly disappointed. Get past that, accept it for what it is, and it's a good laugh. Just don't expect it to be a watered down Elise, as aside from weight, layout and questionable gearshifts, they don't share much else in common.
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Friday 6th May 16:46
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff