Discussion
GC8 said:
Ive been meaning to try to find out what sort of bandwidth FT uses. My phone is reluctant to let me try unless Im connected to a wireless network though, so I suspect that it is far higher than the current 3G network can support.
Is also like to see the bandwidth requirement (and resolution) of the original Three video calling to compare. I suspect that this lower quality video could be accommodated by the networks now.
FaceTime will sharpen the resolution up if you both have a high quality connection and runs at around 10mb a minute according to my phone. Is also like to see the bandwidth requirement (and resolution) of the original Three video calling to compare. I suspect that this lower quality video could be accommodated by the networks now.
I'll just throw in my 2p worth and comment on the first post in the thread.
You may have choice on DAB but you do not have the quality and it will be no better should we adopt DAB+ as you're just cramming more into less.
Several of the BBC stations stream at 320kbps using AAC codecs rather than MP2. Technically it's better than analog FM.
In reality it's not.
Get yourself a decent stereo, not a car radio with 4" speakers or a table top with a 2" and compare for example London's Heart on FM with their DAB stream. You can hear the different in dynamic range.
Now get that old dusty 33rpm album out of the loft and compare.
No comparison, the album wins hands down.
You will never reproduce the quality in digital that you can obtain with analog radio - unfortunately the industry is not interested in fidelity, just content, and driving potential customers to the advertisers.
Phil
You may have choice on DAB but you do not have the quality and it will be no better should we adopt DAB+ as you're just cramming more into less.
Several of the BBC stations stream at 320kbps using AAC codecs rather than MP2. Technically it's better than analog FM.
In reality it's not.
Get yourself a decent stereo, not a car radio with 4" speakers or a table top with a 2" and compare for example London's Heart on FM with their DAB stream. You can hear the different in dynamic range.
Now get that old dusty 33rpm album out of the loft and compare.
No comparison, the album wins hands down.
You will never reproduce the quality in digital that you can obtain with analog radio - unfortunately the industry is not interested in fidelity, just content, and driving potential customers to the advertisers.
Phil
Well said Phil!
I am a musician and play lead guitar and keyboards in a rock band.
Over the years I have had to endure the gradual decline in audio quality, firstly cassettes. The better systems were not too bad and I still use my 8 tracks in an old classic car.
CDs came with the promise of high quality sound plus a great deal of ruggedness for the wear and tear of car use.
The reality is that CDs cut out a lot of the subtle sounds that your ear and brain can pick up in analogue and the other reality is that 80% of my CDs will not play right through without a skip, blimp or a jump. This is on several different modern car systems.
My latest nightmare is listening to the compressed sound on my latest ipad. I have Bose headphones and the old familiar tunes sound thin which is logical since that is exactly what they are since they have compressed the sound and cut out a lot of the high and low frequencies.
If you play a well kept vinyl on a high quality deck and have the CD playing the same track at the same time you can switch the selector from phono to CD and the warmth and fullness of the vinyl analogue really comes out.
For practicality in cars I prefer a high quality cassette player. Some of my cassettes from the 1970s still play perfectly and far better than the CDs.
Final grumble is with the modern car radio controls where you need to be a computer geek to even find the station when you move to another area. Nothing wrong with the old push buttons and round dials, even easier to use than the mess of steering wheel buttons on my current car where I find I have speeded up the cruise speed instead of increasing the volume. To find the station I want is impossible without pulling into a layby and I end up just listening to what ever it comes up with.
In the name of progress we seem to have lost the original point.
I am a musician and play lead guitar and keyboards in a rock band.
Over the years I have had to endure the gradual decline in audio quality, firstly cassettes. The better systems were not too bad and I still use my 8 tracks in an old classic car.
CDs came with the promise of high quality sound plus a great deal of ruggedness for the wear and tear of car use.
The reality is that CDs cut out a lot of the subtle sounds that your ear and brain can pick up in analogue and the other reality is that 80% of my CDs will not play right through without a skip, blimp or a jump. This is on several different modern car systems.
My latest nightmare is listening to the compressed sound on my latest ipad. I have Bose headphones and the old familiar tunes sound thin which is logical since that is exactly what they are since they have compressed the sound and cut out a lot of the high and low frequencies.
If you play a well kept vinyl on a high quality deck and have the CD playing the same track at the same time you can switch the selector from phono to CD and the warmth and fullness of the vinyl analogue really comes out.
For practicality in cars I prefer a high quality cassette player. Some of my cassettes from the 1970s still play perfectly and far better than the CDs.
Final grumble is with the modern car radio controls where you need to be a computer geek to even find the station when you move to another area. Nothing wrong with the old push buttons and round dials, even easier to use than the mess of steering wheel buttons on my current car where I find I have speeded up the cruise speed instead of increasing the volume. To find the station I want is impossible without pulling into a layby and I end up just listening to what ever it comes up with.
In the name of progress we seem to have lost the original point.
Vanin said:
Well said Phil!
I am a musician and play lead guitar and keyboards in a rock band.
Over the years I have had to endure the gradual decline in audio quality, firstly cassettes. The better systems were not too bad and I still use my 8 tracks in an old classic car.
CDs came with the promise of high quality sound plus a great deal of ruggedness for the wear and tear of car use.
The reality is that CDs cut out a lot of the subtle sounds that your ear and brain can pick up in analogue and the other reality is that 80% of my CDs will not play right through without a skip, blimp or a jump. This is on several different modern car systems.
My latest nightmare is listening to the compressed sound on my latest ipad. I have Bose headphones and the old familiar tunes sound thin which is logical since that is exactly what they are since they have compressed the sound and cut out a lot of the high and low frequencies.
If you play a well kept vinyl on a high quality deck and have the CD playing the same track at the same time you can switch the selector from phono to CD and the warmth and fullness of the vinyl analogue really comes out.
For practicality in cars I prefer a high quality cassette player. Some of my cassettes from the 1970s still play perfectly and far better than the CDs.
Final grumble is with the modern car radio controls where you need to be a computer geek to even find the station when you move to another area. Nothing wrong with the old push buttons and round dials, even easier to use than the mess of steering wheel buttons on my current car where I find I have speeded up the cruise speed instead of increasing the volume. To find the station I want is impossible without pulling into a layby and I end up just listening to what ever it comes up with.
In the name of progress we seem to have lost the original point.
Really? All valid points, but I disagree with the sentiment behind the whole post.I am a musician and play lead guitar and keyboards in a rock band.
Over the years I have had to endure the gradual decline in audio quality, firstly cassettes. The better systems were not too bad and I still use my 8 tracks in an old classic car.
CDs came with the promise of high quality sound plus a great deal of ruggedness for the wear and tear of car use.
The reality is that CDs cut out a lot of the subtle sounds that your ear and brain can pick up in analogue and the other reality is that 80% of my CDs will not play right through without a skip, blimp or a jump. This is on several different modern car systems.
My latest nightmare is listening to the compressed sound on my latest ipad. I have Bose headphones and the old familiar tunes sound thin which is logical since that is exactly what they are since they have compressed the sound and cut out a lot of the high and low frequencies.
If you play a well kept vinyl on a high quality deck and have the CD playing the same track at the same time you can switch the selector from phono to CD and the warmth and fullness of the vinyl analogue really comes out.
For practicality in cars I prefer a high quality cassette player. Some of my cassettes from the 1970s still play perfectly and far better than the CDs.
Final grumble is with the modern car radio controls where you need to be a computer geek to even find the station when you move to another area. Nothing wrong with the old push buttons and round dials, even easier to use than the mess of steering wheel buttons on my current car where I find I have speeded up the cruise speed instead of increasing the volume. To find the station I want is impossible without pulling into a layby and I end up just listening to what ever it comes up with.
In the name of progress we seem to have lost the original point.
Do I really want studio quality sound in my car? Not at all, why would I? A clear and decent sound for enjoying a few tunes, but if I'm driving for enjoyment the music is secondary to the driving.
On my daily commute I just want something interesting to listen to while driving in which case DAB works well where I live-plenty of choice between the stations.
I get it's nice to hear every detail when listening to dark side of the moon with a glass of red in my eames lounge chair, but when folk are driving I'm happy enough that it's background music and they're actually concentrating on the driving!
ds2000 said:
Just stream a station....
If everyone or even a majority does that it is an extremely inefficient way of doing things. There's still a case for a broadcast solution. The pronouncements of FM/DAB's death are wide of the mark. The infrastructure is there and is peanuts to maintain compared to setting up cells for 100% data coverage.Vanin said:
Well said Phil!
I am a musician and play lead guitar and keyboards in a rock band.
Over the years I have had to endure the gradual decline in audio quality, firstly cassettes. The better systems were not too bad and I still use my 8 tracks in an old classic car.
CDs came with the promise of high quality sound plus a great deal of ruggedness for the wear and tear of car use.
The reality is that CDs cut out a lot of the subtle sounds that your ear and brain can pick up in analogue and the other reality is that 80% of my CDs will not play right through without a skip, blimp or a jump. This is on several different modern car systems.
My latest nightmare is listening to the compressed sound on my latest ipad. I have Bose headphones and the old familiar tunes sound thin which is logical since that is exactly what they are since they have compressed the sound and cut out a lot of the high and low frequencies.
If you play a well kept vinyl on a high quality deck and have the CD playing the same track at the same time you can switch the selector from phono to CD and the warmth and fullness of the vinyl analogue really comes out.
For practicality in cars I prefer a high quality cassette player. Some of my cassettes from the 1970s still play perfectly and far better than the CDs.
Final grumble is with the modern car radio controls where you need to be a computer geek to even find the station when you move to another area. Nothing wrong with the old push buttons and round dials, even easier to use than the mess of steering wheel buttons on my current car where I find I have speeded up the cruise speed instead of increasing the volume. To find the station I want is impossible without pulling into a layby and I end up just listening to what ever it comes up with.
In the name of progress we seem to have lost the original point.
I doubt that a CD loses any amount of audible sound unless it's a compressed MP3 that is burned on to a disc from a download store etc.I am a musician and play lead guitar and keyboards in a rock band.
Over the years I have had to endure the gradual decline in audio quality, firstly cassettes. The better systems were not too bad and I still use my 8 tracks in an old classic car.
CDs came with the promise of high quality sound plus a great deal of ruggedness for the wear and tear of car use.
The reality is that CDs cut out a lot of the subtle sounds that your ear and brain can pick up in analogue and the other reality is that 80% of my CDs will not play right through without a skip, blimp or a jump. This is on several different modern car systems.
My latest nightmare is listening to the compressed sound on my latest ipad. I have Bose headphones and the old familiar tunes sound thin which is logical since that is exactly what they are since they have compressed the sound and cut out a lot of the high and low frequencies.
If you play a well kept vinyl on a high quality deck and have the CD playing the same track at the same time you can switch the selector from phono to CD and the warmth and fullness of the vinyl analogue really comes out.
For practicality in cars I prefer a high quality cassette player. Some of my cassettes from the 1970s still play perfectly and far better than the CDs.
Final grumble is with the modern car radio controls where you need to be a computer geek to even find the station when you move to another area. Nothing wrong with the old push buttons and round dials, even easier to use than the mess of steering wheel buttons on my current car where I find I have speeded up the cruise speed instead of increasing the volume. To find the station I want is impossible without pulling into a layby and I end up just listening to what ever it comes up with.
In the name of progress we seem to have lost the original point.
Surely with all modern music the original source file from the recording studio will be an uncompressed (in terms of bit rate) wav file; nothing should be lost when this is transferred to disc.
Granted though, CD and vinyl may have different sound characteristics and a lot of modern music, particularly dance music, is heavily compressed to get a loud track at the expense of dynamics.
Vanin said:
<snip>
The reality is that CDs cut out a lot of the subtle sounds that your ear and brain can pick up in analogue and the other reality is that 80% of my CDs will not play right through without a skip, blimp or a jump.
Loss of subtle sounds might apply to the mp3 format, but not to CD - but this is an age old argument.The reality is that CDs cut out a lot of the subtle sounds that your ear and brain can pick up in analogue and the other reality is that 80% of my CDs will not play right through without a skip, blimp or a jump.
If your CDs skip in the car then either they need cleaning or your car CD player is faulty - I've played CDs and have driven over the roughest of roads with no skipping at all.
Vanin said:
My latest nightmare is listening to the compressed sound on my latest ipad. I have Bose headphones and the old familiar tunes sound thin which is logical since that is exactly what they are since they have compressed the sound and cut out a lot of the high and low frequencies.
Although some rate the iPad as being high fidelity, I doubt that this is truly the case. Likewise with Bose headphones...Vanin said:
If you play a well kept vinyl on a high quality deck and have the CD playing the same track at the same time you can switch the selector from phono to CD and the warmth and fullness of the vinyl analogue really comes out.
25 years ago, I would have put forth the same argument. But today, digital manages the 'warmth' IMHO.Vanin said:
For practicality in cars I prefer a high quality cassette player. Some of my cassettes from the 1970s still play perfectly and far better than the CDs.
Cassettes generally tend to sound better in a lot of car systems simply because of the limited dynamic range. Bass tends to sound fuller (note: not deeper) and treble is audible but I wouldn't class it as being high in clarity / fidelity.Listen to a car system that can handle the dynamic range of CD, and compare it with cassette, and suddenly cassettes sound thin and lifeless.
Vanin said:
Final grumble is with the modern car radio controls where you need to be a computer geek to even find the station when you move to another area. Nothing wrong with the old push buttons and round dials, even easier to use than the mess of steering wheel buttons on my current car where I find I have speeded up the cruise speed instead of increasing the volume. To find the station I want is impossible without pulling into a layby and I end up just listening to what ever it comes up with.
As all the cars I've owned in recent years are not newer than '02, I guess the radios would be classed as old tech by today's standards. But I have no problem pushing '1' for Radio 1, '2' for Radio 2, and the rest are programmed accordingly to my favourite stations.Having seen some modern cars e.g. BMW iDrive I do see where you're coming from though.
Vanin said:
In the name of progress we seem to have lost the original point.
In terms of quality of reproduction (both in car and in home) I would tend to disagree. With the right material, even a relatively cheap all in one system eclipses so called HiFi* of the 1970s.- I'm talking about budget HiFi not high end stuff.
Effjay said:
I doubt that a CD loses any amount of audible sound...
The point though (which I always kind of understood but had explained clearly to me by a sound engineer and music critic who used to have his own TV show in Montenegro) is that with digital sound there is a finite point past which the sound quality cannot progress by definition. Most equipment will never reach that point but it is there nonetheless, whereas with analogue reproduction of sound the scope for improvement is infinite.Digital recording and reproduction is far superior, providing that the sampling frequency and descriptor length are sufficiently high.
44/48KHz and 16bit was bloody impressive in 1982 (as was 700MBs of storage), but its shortcomings can be identified by a discerning listener. When you increase the sampling rate to 96KHz and the descriptor size to 24bit I would defy anyone to find fault with the quality of the recording and playback.
This has been available since 1998, but no one is interested in adopting it. People do seem to want MP3 though, despite its inferiority... Remember that MP3 is consumer-led and the content/equipment suppliers are only satisfying the demand - they didnt create it.
Id much prefer DVD Audio, but no one else seemed to care...
44/48KHz and 16bit was bloody impressive in 1982 (as was 700MBs of storage), but its shortcomings can be identified by a discerning listener. When you increase the sampling rate to 96KHz and the descriptor size to 24bit I would defy anyone to find fault with the quality of the recording and playback.
This has been available since 1998, but no one is interested in adopting it. People do seem to want MP3 though, despite its inferiority... Remember that MP3 is consumer-led and the content/equipment suppliers are only satisfying the demand - they didnt create it.
Id much prefer DVD Audio, but no one else seemed to care...
GC8 said:
When you increase the sampling rate to 96KHz and the descriptor size to 24bit I would defy anyone to find fault with the quality of the recording and playback.
This has been available since 1998, but no one is interested in adopting it. People do seem to want MP3 though, despite its inferiority... Remember that MP3 is consumer-led and the content/equipment suppliers are only satisfying the demand - they didnt create it.
Which is the other side of the coin. Where digital media wins is that it brings convenience and better quality than most people experienced before at a lower cost.This has been available since 1998, but no one is interested in adopting it. People do seem to want MP3 though, despite its inferiority... Remember that MP3 is consumer-led and the content/equipment suppliers are only satisfying the demand - they didnt create it.
Funny that you mentioned DVD-Audio - many of the best-selling discs are old classics remastered from analogue studio tapes, which lend themselves to being 'improved' by the format whereas 'DDD' mastered music from the 80's and 90's is stuck at the sample rate/size of the time and can get no better, just like old classic movies benefit more from transfer to blu-ray if they can find an undamaged celluloid print!
Effjay said:
I doubt that a CD loses any amount of audible sound unless it's a compressed MP3 that is burned on to a disc from a download store etc.
Surely with all modern music the original source file from the recording studio will be an uncompressed (in terms of bit rate) wav file; nothing should be lost when this is transferred to disc.
Granted though, CD and vinyl may have different sound characteristics and a lot of modern music, particularly dance music, is heavily compressed to get a loud track at the expense of dynamics.
Incorrect Jay,Surely with all modern music the original source file from the recording studio will be an uncompressed (in terms of bit rate) wav file; nothing should be lost when this is transferred to disc.
Granted though, CD and vinyl may have different sound characteristics and a lot of modern music, particularly dance music, is heavily compressed to get a loud track at the expense of dynamics.
A vinyl record is an analog recording, and CDs and DVDs are digital recordings. Original sound is analog by definition. A digital recording takes snapshots of the analog signal at a certain rate (for CDs it is 44,100 times per second) and measures each snapshot with a certain accuracy (for CDs it is 16-bit, which means the value must be one of 65,536 possible values).
This means that, by definition, a digital recording is not capturing the complete sound wave. It is approximating it with a series of steps. Some sounds that have very quick transitions, such as a drum beat or a trumpet's tone, will be distorted because they change too quickly for the sample rate.
But you get the idea. You can only appreciate what you're missing when you compare side by side. Music comes alive.
Have a listen to my station here in Cyprus where we use the mildest of compression from an Orban Optimod - www.sunshineradio.com
Vinyl still has superior dynamic range.
Phil
Edited by Transmitter Man on Thursday 5th March 10:35
Transmitter Man said:
<snip>
Vinyl still has superior dynamic range.
Phil
Even if it did (which it doesn't) any advantage would be lost to surface noise etc.Vinyl still has superior dynamic range.
Phil
Edited by Transmitter Man on Thursday 5th March 10:35
You may want to read the Hydrogen Audio Wiki where the following is stated:
wiki.hydrogenaudio said:
The dynamic range of vinyl, when evaluated as the ratio of a peak sinusoidal amplitude to the peak noise density at that sine wave frequency, is somewhere around 80 dB. Under theoretically ideal conditions, this could perhaps improve to 120 dB. The dynamic range of CDs, when evaluated on a frequency-dependent basis and performed with proper dithering and oversampling, is somewhere around 150 dB. Under no legitimate circumstances will the dynamic range of vinyl ever exceed the dynamic range of CD, under any frequency, given the wide performance gap and the physical limitations of vinyl playback.
You only need to listen to any classical piece on vinyl to notice the background noise, which simply doesn't exist on CD (unless part of the original recording).For what it's worth, I was a vinyl fan right up until the mid 90's when I eventually realised that digital had eclipsed it by a fair margin.
So I'm not a digital 'zealot' - I'm just speaking from my own practical experience which has largely been confirmed by what I have read.
Edited by TonyRPH on Thursday 5th March 11:13
TonyRPH said:
In terms of quality of reproduction (both in car and in home) I would tend to disagree. With the right material, even a relatively cheap all in one system eclipses so called HiFi* of the 1970s.
I can hear the harshness of a CD over the warmth of an analogue sound at least with the CDs and equipment in the cars.- I'm talking about budget HiFi not high end stuff.
If I drive into another county and want for instance "Radio Norfolk" it was a lot easier to find on a simple old car radio than a modern one with a thousand buttons.
You said nothing about the fact that most of my CDs will not play right through without an irritating hop and jump somewhere.
I treat them as well as I did the old vinyl and cassettes but they do not stand up to use in a vehicle.
Vanin said:
I can hear the harshness of a CD over the warmth of an analogue sound at least with the CDs and equipment in the cars.
That's more than likely due to the cheap DAC used in such equipment.Vanin said:
If I drive into another county and want for instance "Radio Norfolk" it was a lot easier to find on a simple old car radio than a modern one with a thousand buttons.
I agree - but if you use RDS setup correctly, the radio will usually find another station with the same kind of music once you move out of range. Sure, it's a learning curve to set this up - but once it's done you can forget (until someone disconnects the battery!!!).Vanin said:
You said nothing about the fact that most of my CDs will not play right through without an irritating hop and jump somewhere.
I treat them as well as I did the old vinyl and cassettes but they do not stand up to use in a vehicle.
As someone who used to repair car CD players & CD changers, I can tell you that they are not kind to CDs at all. This is why I used to use copied CDs in my cars. When you consider that in the case of a CD changer, the unit could be in the process of removing / inserting a CD and you hit a bump - and suddenly your CD has a nice scratch...I treat them as well as I did the old vinyl and cassettes but they do not stand up to use in a vehicle.
TonyRPH said:
You only need to listen to any classical piece on vinyl to notice the background noise, which simply doesn't exist on CD (unless part of the original recording).
For what it's worth, I was a vinyl fan right up until the mid 90's when I eventually realised that digital had eclipsed it by a fair margin.
So I'm not a digital 'zealot' - I'm just speaking from my own practical experience which has largely been confirmed by what I have read.
I should of mentioned surface noise and of course even dust will screw things up.For what it's worth, I was a vinyl fan right up until the mid 90's when I eventually realised that digital had eclipsed it by a fair margin.
So I'm not a digital 'zealot' - I'm just speaking from my own practical experience which has largely been confirmed by what I have read.
Edited by TonyRPH on Thursday 5th March 11:13
Lets talk virgin vinyl.
I'll agree to disagree re dynamic range then.
Phil
TonyRPH said:
Transmitter Man said:
<snip>
Vinyl still has superior dynamic range.
Phil
Even if it did (which it doesn't) any advantage would be lost to surface noise etc.Vinyl still has superior dynamic range.
Phil
Edited by Transmitter Man on Thursday 5th March 10:35
You may want to read the Hydrogen Audio Wiki where the following is stated:
wiki.hydrogenaudio said:
The dynamic range of vinyl, when evaluated as the ratio of a peak sinusoidal amplitude to the peak noise density at that sine wave frequency, is somewhere around 80 dB. Under theoretically ideal conditions, this could perhaps improve to 120 dB. The dynamic range of CDs, when evaluated on a frequency-dependent basis and performed with proper dithering and oversampling, is somewhere around 150 dB. Under no legitimate circumstances will the dynamic range of vinyl ever exceed the dynamic range of CD, under any frequency, given the wide performance gap and the physical limitations of vinyl playback.
You only need to listen to any classical piece on vinyl to notice the background noise, which simply doesn't exist on CD (unless part of the original recording).For what it's worth, I was a vinyl fan right up until the mid 90's when I eventually realised that digital had eclipsed it by a fair margin.
So I'm not a digital 'zealot' - I'm just speaking from my own practical experience which has largely been confirmed by what I have read.
Edited by TonyRPH on Thursday 5th March 11:13
St John Smythe said:
I love vinyl and have quite a large collection. No CD, MP3, etc will ever replace the enjoyment of placing a record on a deck and listening to it.
Do you know - I used to say the same thing.I had a lovely Technics Turntable (SL 1600 MK2) with a Shure V15 III (IIRC) and a home built phono stage etc..
I too loved the tactile feel of the turntable and the vinyl, but as the digital side of my system got better with upgrades, I found myself spending more and more time listening to CDs.
Added to that was the chore of cleaning the vinyl etc. and CD won the day.
I do in fact still prefer listening to CDs rather than streaming to this day - so there is still some involvement with "spinning" discs.
I have a nice Roberts DAB radio but here in Bosnia it is just a box of junk, DAB needs a big infrastructure , the BBC designed version is UK only.
I'm glad i have an old Blaupunkt stereo FM radio from the 1970s, though the SW 49 metre band doesn't pick anything up these days.
Internet radio in cars has an ongoing service cost, like browsing, a silly idea.
I'm glad i have an old Blaupunkt stereo FM radio from the 1970s, though the SW 49 metre band doesn't pick anything up these days.
Internet radio in cars has an ongoing service cost, like browsing, a silly idea.
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