Winter tyres vol 2
Discussion
So the guy who fitted my tyres said that winters are an absolute pain to balance, and the rear is out a little but the front is fine. He lied.
I've already accepted taking it elsewhere to get all 4 corners balanced, but is there any truth in what he's said? Both the tyres and alloys were previously balanced fine (not together).
I've already accepted taking it elsewhere to get all 4 corners balanced, but is there any truth in what he's said? Both the tyres and alloys were previously balanced fine (not together).
popeyewhite said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Blunting the handling in winter is very desirable.
Not for many performance car owners it isn't. We still enjoy sharp handling, but just drive to the conditions. Which incidentally were incredibly mild last 'winter'. Are you this arrogant in your job or just when you don't have to deal with people face to face?Because race car. Or something.
Thinking you're completely an utterly missing the point isn't arrogance, but no you don't get special treatment on the internet. I'm quite happy to debate face to face and if I didn't strongly believe in my views I wouldn't waste everyones' time including my own expressing them.
For a typical high performance car used in winter (and I'm talking about a fast daily driver, not someone deciding whether to take his garage queen out on the nicest day in February), sharp handling is not the primary concern. Any perceived negative in blunting the car is vastly outweighed by the fact that the winter tyres do not snap between gripping and all-out sliding in a flash. UHP summer tyres can bite very hard in winter.
Show me a genuine owner of a high powered RWD car who hasn't had a scare from a sudden loss of grip on summer tyres at very cold temperatures, and I'll show you someone who's yet to do any significant milage at 6am in winter with a 0deg ambient temperature.
Don't give me all the PH Driving God "drive to the conditions" crap. If I didn't drive to conditions, the cars I've racked up milage in would have already been crashed long ago. That is probably something that can safely be said for everyone else on this thread stating their experiences of fast cars and winter tyres. You wouldn't get as far as a mile from my house on a damp summer's day in a Cerbera or 550ps Jag as a lead-footed oaf. An ability to drive to conditions can safely be taken as read I think.
Winter tyres on my fast cars make for a more capable, safer and predictable compromise than summer tyres on same cars this time of year.
Enjoying chassis balance and a keen turn in is a luxury for days when mechanical grip is high. In winter, I just need to be able to keep enough power on to climb a hill with a kink in the road without breaking traction on the bend because the UHP summers are rock hard.
Calza said:
So the guy who fitted my tyres said that winters are an absolute pain to balance, and the rear is out a little but the front is fine. He lied.
I've already accepted taking it elsewhere to get all 4 corners balanced, but is there any truth in what he's said? Both the tyres and alloys were previously balanced fine (not together).
Never had that issue so either all my tyre fitters are ex-f1 team mechanics or the one you had is talking poo.I've already accepted taking it elsewhere to get all 4 corners balanced, but is there any truth in what he's said? Both the tyres and alloys were previously balanced fine (not together).
popeyewhite said:
Not for many performance car owners it isn't. We still enjoy sharp handling, but just drive to the conditions. Which incidentally were incredibly mild last 'winter'. Are you this arrogant in your job or just when you don't have to deal with people face to face?
"Driving to the conditions" and "using skill" doesn't add friction and therefore safety. There's a time and place. Usually on track anyway to use anywhere near the potential of a performance car. And on track, UHP summers massively blunt the handling as they are often useless unless you only run 5/6 laps at a time.It's all about the contact patch and the right compound for the job.
Calza said:
So the guy who fitted my tyres said that winters are an absolute pain to balance, and the rear is out a little but the front is fine. He lied.
I've already accepted taking it elsewhere to get all 4 corners balanced, but is there any truth in what he's said? Both the tyres and alloys were previously balanced fine (not together).
Sounds like bI've already accepted taking it elsewhere to get all 4 corners balanced, but is there any truth in what he's said? Both the tyres and alloys were previously balanced fine (not together).
ks to me mate[quote=jamieduff1981]
None of the performance car owners I know (and I know many) weigh up the pros and cons and decide to run a high performance car in winter on summer tyres because on balance blunting the handling is too much of a penalty to pay for not breaking traction constantly.
Because race car. Or something.
Thinking you're completely an utterly missing the point isn't arrogance, but no you don't get special treatment on the internet. I'm quite happy to debate face to face and if I didn't strongly believe in my views I wouldn't waste everyones' time including my own expressing them.
For a typical high performance car used in winter (and I'm talking about a fast daily driver, not someone deciding whether to take his garage queen out on the nicest day in February), sharp handling is not the primary concern. Any perceived negative in blunting the car is vastly outweighed by the fact that the winter tyres do not snap between gripping and all-out sliding in a flash. UHP summer tyres can bite very hard in winter.
Show me a genuine owner of a high powered RWD car who hasn't had a scare from a sudden loss of grip on summer tyres at very cold temperatures, and I'll show you someone who's yet to do any significant milage at 6am in winter with a 0deg ambient temperature.
Don't give me all the PH Driving God "drive to the conditions" crap. If I didn't drive to conditions, the cars I've racked up milage in would have already been crashed long ago. That is probably something that can safely be said for everyone else on this thread stating their experiences of fast cars and winter tyres. You wouldn't get as far as a mile from my house on a damp summer's day in a Cerbera or 550ps Jag as a lead-footed oaf. An ability to drive to conditions can safely be taken as read I think.
Winter tyres on my fast cars make for a more capable, safer and predictable compromise than summer tyres on same cars this time of year.
Enjoying chassis balance and a keen turn in is a luxury for days when mechanical grip is high. In winter, I just need to be able to keep enough power on to climb a hill with a kink in the road without breaking traction on the bend because the UHP summers are rock hard.[/quote
"I had a Brown moment last winter , "gently" overtaking a tractor on a nice straight empty road , backend went out like a whip (520 hp rwd) . And this is with a Quaife locking diff fitted and Michelin PPS with loads of tread . Lesson learned ! Im now on winter Vredstein's and they are very good indeed . Winters are going on every year now , even on my Smart"
None of the performance car owners I know (and I know many) weigh up the pros and cons and decide to run a high performance car in winter on summer tyres because on balance blunting the handling is too much of a penalty to pay for not breaking traction constantly.
Because race car. Or something.
Thinking you're completely an utterly missing the point isn't arrogance, but no you don't get special treatment on the internet. I'm quite happy to debate face to face and if I didn't strongly believe in my views I wouldn't waste everyones' time including my own expressing them.
For a typical high performance car used in winter (and I'm talking about a fast daily driver, not someone deciding whether to take his garage queen out on the nicest day in February), sharp handling is not the primary concern. Any perceived negative in blunting the car is vastly outweighed by the fact that the winter tyres do not snap between gripping and all-out sliding in a flash. UHP summer tyres can bite very hard in winter.
Show me a genuine owner of a high powered RWD car who hasn't had a scare from a sudden loss of grip on summer tyres at very cold temperatures, and I'll show you someone who's yet to do any significant milage at 6am in winter with a 0deg ambient temperature.
Don't give me all the PH Driving God "drive to the conditions" crap. If I didn't drive to conditions, the cars I've racked up milage in would have already been crashed long ago. That is probably something that can safely be said for everyone else on this thread stating their experiences of fast cars and winter tyres. You wouldn't get as far as a mile from my house on a damp summer's day in a Cerbera or 550ps Jag as a lead-footed oaf. An ability to drive to conditions can safely be taken as read I think.
Winter tyres on my fast cars make for a more capable, safer and predictable compromise than summer tyres on same cars this time of year.
Enjoying chassis balance and a keen turn in is a luxury for days when mechanical grip is high. In winter, I just need to be able to keep enough power on to climb a hill with a kink in the road without breaking traction on the bend because the UHP summers are rock hard.[/quote
"I had a Brown moment last winter , "gently" overtaking a tractor on a nice straight empty road , backend went out like a whip (520 hp rwd) . And this is with a Quaife locking diff fitted and Michelin PPS with loads of tread . Lesson learned ! Im now on winter Vredstein's and they are very good indeed . Winters are going on every year now , even on my Smart"
Edited by Captain Smerc on Friday 2nd December 21:55
I'm a long term fan of winter tyres having first used them in 2005 but have to admit my mk 7 Golf R on Michelin Pilot Alpins is more compromised than anything else I have driven on winter tyres (330Ci, 330Cd, XF 3.0d, Octavia TDi, 640d). Last winter I found it quite alarming after swapping from summer tyres and a friend reported similar with his R on different branded winter tyres. Initially after swapping this winter it seemed better than I remembered although twice this week, at temperatures below 7 degrees, it's drifted under moderate throttle when even the well worn Bridgestone S001 summer tyres (widely accepted to be fairly pants) would have been absolutely fine. One of reasons I went for the Michelins is they are aimed at the high performance end of the market but I dread to think what a 2wd 911 would feel like on them...
jamieduff1981 said:
For a typical high performance car used in winter (and I'm talking about a fast daily driver, not someone deciding whether to take his garage queen out on the nicest day in February), sharp handling is not the primary concern.
And now you speak for all other performance car drivers.jamieduff1981 said:
Any perceived negative in blunting the car is vastly outweighed by the fact that the winter tyres do not snap between gripping and all-out sliding in a flash.
If you read my post properly you'll see I said 'drive to the conditions'. Do this and winters are a pain in winter, they're squishy on take-off, mess around with the TC and wallowy on corners. I also inferred they're rubbish in summer, a point you haven't addressed.jamieduff1981 said:
Show me a genuine owner of a high powered RWD car who hasn't had a scare from a sudden loss of grip on summer tyres at very cold temperatures, and I'll show you someone who's yet to do any significant milage at 6am in winter with a 0deg ambient temperature.
There are people out there who put up with the idiosyncracies of RWD on normal tyres in winter because they like the way their car feels, and, once again, they drive to the conditions.jamieduff1981 said:
Don't give me all the PH Driving God "drive to the conditions" crap.
You think trying to adapt your driving to the conditions makes a driving god? Seriously?jamieduff1981 said:
If I didn't drive to conditions..
Oh my word 
jamieduff1981 said:
the cars I've racked up milage in would have already been crashed long ago. That is probably something that can safely be said for everyone else on this thread stating their experiences of fast cars and winter tyres. You wouldn't get as far as a mile from my house on a damp summer's day in a Cerbera or 550ps Jag as a lead-footed oaf. An ability to drive to conditions can safely be taken as read I think.
Winter tyres on my fast cars make for a more capable, safer and predictable compromise than summer tyres on same cars this time of year.
Good for you. I don't go for compromise generally. Others might, or they might not.Winter tyres on my fast cars make for a more capable, safer and predictable compromise than summer tyres on same cars this time of year.
jamieduff1981 said:
Enjoying chassis balance and a keen turn in is a luxury for days when mechanical grip is high.
Plenty of winter days when tyres are warm and roads aren't icy. And when it's not, well, sometimes that's fun too. Do you live in the Arctic?
FiF said:
And the argument goes into another iteration due to some folks arguing based on a hidden presumption that their situation, needs and circumstances are valid for everyone else, therefore they are right and everyone else who happens to have different needs etc are wrong by default.
A valid point, which obviously applies both ways. popeyewhite said:
FiF said:
And the argument goes into another iteration due to some folks arguing based on a hidden presumption that their situation, needs and circumstances are valid for everyone else, therefore they are right and everyone else who happens to have different needs etc are wrong by default.
A valid point, which obviously applies both ways. Gassing Station | Suspension, Brakes & Tyres | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff