Winter tyres vol 2

Author
Discussion

tomjol

532 posts

116 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
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popeyewhite said:
Read the thread.
I have, and I don't remember anyone recommending running winters on fast cars through summer. Daily beaters and stuff, sure, but then we're usually talking all-seasons anyway.

No doubt somebody has, but there are always nutters... smile

ETA: It seems that said nutter is...well...you. Oh well.

ATM

18,091 posts

218 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
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cslwannabe said:
I'm a long term fan of winter tyres having first used them in 2005 but have to admit my mk 7 Golf R on Michelin Pilot Alpins is more compromised than anything else I have driven on winter tyres (330Ci, 330Cd, XF 3.0d, Octavia TDi, 640d). Last winter I found it quite alarming after swapping from summer tyres and a friend reported similar with his R on different branded winter tyres. Initially after swapping this winter it seemed better than I remembered although twice this week, at temperatures below 7 degrees, it's drifted under moderate throttle when even the well worn Bridgestone S001 summer tyres (widely accepted to be fairly pants) would have been absolutely fine. One of reasons I went for the Michelins is they are aimed at the high performance end of the market but I dread to think what a 2wd 911 would feel like on them...
I have a 981 with N rated winters. They're Michelin Alpin. I bought some Alpin 4 a couple years back for my 3 series saloon. I don't know how relevant this is but the tread pattern on the N rated Alpin is very different to the pattern on the Alpin 4. I find the 981 handles just fine on them. I even used them all through spring this year. I know the debate about N rated tyres has been raging for years. From what I can see the patterns on N rated summers are basically identical. My view is with Summers I am less excited about N rating but these Winters seriously impress.

theboss

6,878 posts

218 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
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cslwannabe said:
I'm a long term fan of winter tyres having first used them in 2005 but have to admit my mk 7 Golf R on Michelin Pilot Alpins is more compromised than anything else I have driven on winter tyres (330Ci, 330Cd, XF 3.0d, Octavia TDi, 640d). Last winter I found it quite alarming after swapping from summer tyres and a friend reported similar with his R on different branded winter tyres. Initially after swapping this winter it seemed better than I remembered although twice this week, at temperatures below 7 degrees, it's drifted under moderate throttle when even the well worn Bridgestone S001 summer tyres (widely accepted to be fairly pants) would have been absolutely fine. One of reasons I went for the Michelins is they are aimed at the high performance end of the market but I dread to think what a 2wd 911 would feel like on them...
Thats surprising. I've had the opposite experience with Dunlop Winter Sport 5 on my 7R - I just bought the same size/profile as the factory S001 and straight swapped them rather than buying a smaller wheelset. In fact they have been so good I left them on the car (which isn't a daily drive) all summer and although it was always compromised to a degree it certainly didn't fall apart handling wise, even when 20 degrees or more.

I have a set of Pilot Alpins to replace the MPSS on my M5 and am not sure what to expect - but the MPSS are quite worn now and I don't fancy a winter on them.

popeyewhite

19,622 posts

119 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
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FiF said:
Absolutely it does, unfortunately it can result in biased opinion being posted which muddies the water for anyone looking for objective information upon which to make a decision regarding their own situation etc.
Agree 100%. If you don't welcome differing opinions an echo chamber can result.

popeyewhite

19,622 posts

119 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
quotequote all
tomjol said:
I have, and I don't remember anyone recommending running winters on fast cars through summer. Daily beaters and stuff, sure, but then we're usually talking all-seasons anyway.

No doubt somebody has, but there are always nutters... smile

ETA: It seems that said nutter is...well...you. Oh well.
Er..I haven't recommended running winters on fast cars. Second time round - please read the thread properly.

Pooh

3,692 posts

252 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
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I haven't read through the entire thread but does anybody have any experience of the Nokian WR A4 winter tyre? It is quite new and there do not seem to be any reviews of it.
I am looking for winter tyres and they seem to be good without being too expensive.

bertie

8,545 posts

283 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
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jamieduff1981 said:
None of the performance car owners I know (and I know many) weigh up the pros and cons and decide to run a high performance car in winter on summer tyres because on balance blunting the handling is too much of a penalty to pay for not breaking traction constantly.

Because race car. Or something.

Thinking you're completely an utterly missing the point isn't arrogance, but no you don't get special treatment on the internet. I'm quite happy to debate face to face and if I didn't strongly believe in my views I wouldn't waste everyones' time including my own expressing them.

For a typical high performance car used in winter (and I'm talking about a fast daily driver, not someone deciding whether to take his garage queen out on the nicest day in February), sharp handling is not the primary concern. Any perceived negative in blunting the car is vastly outweighed by the fact that the winter tyres do not snap between gripping and all-out sliding in a flash. UHP summer tyres can bite very hard in winter.

Show me a genuine owner of a high powered RWD car who hasn't had a scare from a sudden loss of grip on summer tyres at very cold temperatures, and I'll show you someone who's yet to do any significant milage at 6am in winter with a 0deg ambient temperature.

Don't give me all the PH Driving God "drive to the conditions" crap. If I didn't drive to conditions, the cars I've racked up milage in would have already been crashed long ago. That is probably something that can safely be said for everyone else on this thread stating their experiences of fast cars and winter tyres. You wouldn't get as far as a mile from my house on a damp summer's day in a Cerbera or 550ps Jag as a lead-footed oaf. An ability to drive to conditions can safely be taken as read I think.

Winter tyres on my fast cars make for a more capable, safer and predictable compromise than summer tyres on same cars this time of year.

Enjoying chassis balance and a keen turn in is a luxury for days when mechanical grip is high. In winter, I just need to be able to keep enough power on to climb a hill with a kink in the road without breaking traction on the bend because the UHP summers are rock hard.
Spot on IMHO.

Winters make my cars so much more usable , at these temperatures on summers the California or 458 are just a skittish liability.


tomjol

532 posts

116 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
quotequote all
popeyewhite said:
Er..I haven't recommended running winters on fast cars. Second time round - please read the thread properly.
Alright, seeing as you're being such a bellend about it, I've read it again.

As far as I can tell, you've made a rather inane and obvious statement that winter tyres are rubbish in summer, then tried to use it as some kind of point-scoring opportunity. Congratulations. Would you like a cookie?

popeyewhite

19,622 posts

119 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
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bertie said:
Spot on IMHO.

Winters make my cars so much more usable , at these temperatures on summers the California or 458 are just a skittish liability.
Do the Midlands have their own, colder, climate bertie? smile

popeyewhite

19,622 posts

119 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
quotequote all
tomjol said:
Alright, seeing as you're being such a bellend about it, I've read it again.

As far as I can tell, you've made a rather inane and obvious statement that winter tyres are rubbish in summer, then tried to use it as some kind of point-scoring opportunity. Congratulations. Would you like a cookie?
I'm mystified as to how can you extrapolate your quote [above] from this?:
popeyewhite said:
A high performance car's handling will become noticeably less sharp in any season on winters.
confused

Have to turn down the cookie, something's obviously affected you so I'll give it a miss. Thanks anyway.

DeaconFrost

431 posts

170 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
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Pooh said:
I haven't read through the entire thread but does anybody have any experience of the Nokian WR A4 winter tyre? It is quite new and there do not seem to be any reviews of it.
I am looking for winter tyres and they seem to be good without being too expensive.
I have them and had the WRA3's before. They're excellent. I'd never run anything else. They seem particularly suited to UK winters.

Pooh

3,692 posts

252 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
quotequote all
DeaconFrost said:
Pooh said:
I haven't read through the entire thread but does anybody have any experience of the Nokian WR A4 winter tyre? It is quite new and there do not seem to be any reviews of it.
I am looking for winter tyres and they seem to be good without being too expensive.
I have them and had the WRA3's before. They're excellent. I'd never run anything else. They seem particularly suited to UK winters.
Thanks, I will get them ordered.

RammyMP

6,729 posts

152 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
quotequote all
Pooh said:
DeaconFrost said:
Pooh said:
I haven't read through the entire thread but does anybody have any experience of the Nokian WR A4 winter tyre? It is quite new and there do not seem to be any reviews of it.
I am looking for winter tyres and they seem to be good without being too expensive.
I have them and had the WRA3's before. They're excellent. I'd never run anything else. They seem particularly suited to UK winters.
Thanks, I will get them ordered.
I've got a set of them also, they are very good, I'd recommend them.

jamiem555

750 posts

210 months

Saturday 3rd December 2016
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This will be the third winter for my Toyo Snowprox.




I'm very impressed with them and they've pulled me through some deep snow.

NRS

22,079 posts

200 months

Sunday 4th December 2016
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popeyewhite said:
nickfrog said:
"Driving to the conditions" and "using skill" doesn't add friction and therefore safety.
Whose talking about safety? If you bother reading my post you'll see my point is that winters blunt a performance car's handling.
No, you added a point on after that which effectively said it's better not to have winter tyres.

popeyewhite said:
A high performance car's handling will become noticeably less sharp in any season on winters. Better put up with adjusting to the conditions and driver skill than too-soft rubber that blunts the handling.
I suspect most people using high performance cars will be willing to give up some of the feel of the car to get that extra safety net. The point about driving to the conditions is valid - but that may well mean driving at very low speeds because the car will kick out sideways at some point on the road (say a A road with patchy sun but with a few places that have damp patches which have frozen over). When it's a daily then the best handling possible is not the biggest priority compared to the absolute best feel that you can get when driving the car. Therefore it would not be better to just adjust to the conditions for them.

It sounds like you either live in a part of the UK with either no snow, or don't use your high powered cars as daily drivers in winter? Even as a lowly MX-5 driver who uses it as a daily (and yes, in the arctic - car costs are horrific here) it makes a huge difference to how you can drive and quite simply if you were on summers in snow your "driving to conditions" would turn you into a moving roadblock, or you'd visit a ditch at some point.

popeyewhite

19,622 posts

119 months

Sunday 4th December 2016
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NRS said:
No, you added a point on after that which effectively said it's better not to have winter tyres.
No I most absolutely did not. Feel free to post the imagined quote in context, without paraphrasing to suit if possible.

I await the next fabricated accusation with interest... .biggrin

HotJambalaya

2,023 posts

179 months

Sunday 4th December 2016
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How old would be the oldest set of winters someone would buy be?

I'm trying to buy an old set of steel wheels on ebay, and as a bonus lots of people are selling them with winters on. Good tread, but no one is posting decent photos of DOT numbers. One that I did manage to see was 2010.

I know that winter technology is rapidly evolving so in addition to age concerns I'd be a little worried that tyres more then a few years old are nowhere near as good as newer ones.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Sunday 4th December 2016
quotequote all
popeyewhite said:
NRS said:
No, you added a point on after that which effectively said it's better not to have winter tyres.
No I most absolutely did not. Feel free to post the imagined quote in context, without paraphrasing to suit if possible.

I await the next fabricated accusation with interest... .biggrin
popeyewhite said:
A high performance car's handling will become noticeably less sharp in any season on winters. Better put up with adjusting to the conditions and driver skill than too-soft rubber that blunts the handling.
Sounds to me a bit like what NRS is saying.

popeyewhite

19,622 posts

119 months

Sunday 4th December 2016
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FiF said:
Sounds to me a bit like what NRS is saying.
Thought it might a bit. And to other winter tyre zealots easy to rise it probably does as well. To me it means exactly what I said - winters blunt the handling of performance cars so I won't be using them on mine.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Sunday 4th December 2016
quotequote all
popeyewhite said:
FiF said:
Sounds to me a bit like what NRS is saying.
Thought it might a bit. And to other winter tyre zealots easy to rise it probably does as well. To me it means exactly what I said - winters blunt the handling of performance cars so I won't be using them on mine.
Stick the zealots accusation. See below.

I'll just remind you of this

popeyewhite said:
FiF said:
And the argument goes into another iteration due to some folks arguing based on a hidden presumption that their situation, needs and circumstances are valid for everyone else, therefore they are right and everyone else who happens to have different needs etc are wrong by default.
A valid point, which obviously applies both ways.
How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?

Ref the zealot accusation, as far as I'm concerned, if you took the trouble to read the thread, is that there are people where it absolutely makes little sense for them to use winters, others where the exact opposite applies, and every shade in between. It all depends. Thst has been my stance. So your decision is that for you it doesn't make sense, fair enough, people get it, snippy responses when folks raise questions trying to understand the logic doesn't help your case.