Winter tyres vol 2

[NRS]

popeyewhite said:

FiF said:

Sounds to me a bit like what NRS is saying.

Thought it might a bit. And to other winter tyre zealots easy to rise it probably does as well. To me it means exactly what I said - winters blunt the handling of performance cars so I won't be using them on mine.

The thing is you didn't saying it being about you - so it just came across as a generalist point due to the wording before. And driving to the conditions will (when you need winter tyres) end up making you very slow. And people get it wrong occasionally - which when you are driving a expensive high powered car is not ideal. It's probably much easier to get it right to drive to the conditions in snow. It's more likely to be an issue when it's mostly dry (so travelling at normal speeds) and then you hit a patch of heavy frost on a corner where you didn't see it.

HotJambalaya said:

How old would be the oldest set of winters someone would buy be?

I'm trying to buy an old set of steel wheels on ebay, and as a bonus lots of people are selling them with winters on. Good tread, but no one is posting decent photos of DOT numbers. One that I did manage to see was 2010.

I know that winter technology is rapidly evolving so in addition to age concerns I'd be a little worried that tyres more then a few years old are nowhere near as good as newer ones.

In Norway (I think our tyres are a bit of a softer compound compared to normal winters) they use 5 years or so - not because of the technology developing, but because of the rubber drying and losing it's effectiveness.

[FiF]

NRS said:

In Norway (I think our tyres are a bit of a softer compound compared to normal winters) they use 5 years or so - not because of the technology developing, but because of the rubber drying and losing it's effectiveness.

Over the years I have used both Nordic and European winters. 5 years sounds about right for the Nordic, and tbh it's not that far off for Europeans ime. Sure they both still work in true winter white conditions, ie fresh and compacted snow, but things get more marginal in wet slushy snow, and in particular in those really tricky conditions, basically where roads are generally clear but patches of ice, eg snow melted during the day, meltwater runs across the road and refreezes, usually in a most inconvenient place. To be clear in those last circumstances studs are king, of course.

[Pooh]

I can never understand why winter tyres are such a contentious topic. If you live in a part of the country where it gets cold and you do a lot of driving on country roads they make a lot of sense, if you live in central London they probably don't. It is all about where you live and where you drive. For me, living in rural Perthshire, they make a huge difference on cold, muddy, salty, slippery country roads.
You can be a total driving god but the extra grip afforded by having the correct tyre for the conditions will still make driving safer.

[popeyewhite]

FiF said:

How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?

Seriously? I've not had a go at anyone but have been feebly accused of this and that by at least three on this thread.

FiF said:

Ref the zealot accusation, as far as I'm concerned, if you took the trouble to read the thread,

Oh I've read the thread.

FiF said:

is that there are people where it absolutely makes little sense for them to use winters, others where the exact opposite applies, and every shade in between. It all depends.

A pity others don't share your manners or magnanimity.

FiF said:

snippy responses when folks raise questions trying to understand the logic doesn't help your case.

...and then you go and ruin with that. Funnily enough I think all my responses are entirely justified. I've used no personal insult or snide comment - just stuck to my point - that winter tyres blunt a performance car's handling.

[bertie]

popeyewhite said:

Thought it might a bit. And to other winter tyre zealots easy to rise it probably does as well. To me it means exactly what I said - winters blunt the handling of performance cars so I won't be using them on mine.

Out of interest, have you ever tried swapping your performance car onto winters?

Genuine question.

[popeyewhite]

bertie said:

popeyewhite said:

Thought it might a bit. And to other winter tyre zealots easy to rise it probably does as well. To me it means exactly what I said - winters blunt the handling of performance cars so I won't be using them on mine.

Out of interest, have you ever tried swapping your performance car onto winters?

Genuine question.

Yes, I tried it first on a tuned S8 which just wallowed a bit more, but was amazing on the frequent snow we get here. Next up was a 911 (996) Carrera which I thought awful on the winters. Three years later I still hadn't learnt my lesson and as my commute changed to one over the High Peak I fitted winters to an E63 AMG. Three weeks later I took them off. I'd rather drive a little slower and have the car behave as it was supposed to.

[FiF]

Selective quotes, sorry,nothing sinister in that just avoiding a quote fest. Will ignore your selective quoting to avoid complication.

popeyewhite said:

FiF said:

How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?

Seriously? I've not had a go at anyone but have been feebly accused of this and that by at least three on this thread.

Errrr, I'm not accusing you of having a go at anyone, what I am saying is that originally you made a broad brush statement which you later revised as being only pertinent to yourself. Yet had previously been somewhat evasive about this when questioned by NRS et al.

popeyewhite said:

FiF said:

is that there are people where it absolutely makes little sense for them to use winters, others where the exact opposite applies, and every shade in between. It all depends.

A pity others don't share your manners or magnanimity.

FiF said:

snippy responses when folks raise questions trying to understand the logic doesn't help your case.

...and then you go and ruin with that. Funnily enough I think all my responses are entirely justified. I've used no personal insult or snide comment - just stuck to my point - that winter tyres blunt a performance car's handling.

No you haven't used any insults etc, but frankly think you've been a tad slippery (oops pun) in some of the responses and definitely been somewhat prickly. It's clear that blunting the handling is a compromise you're not prepared to make, fair enough, others see the equation differently, it's a much wider picture. That's all, no more from me.

[popeyewhite]

FiF said:

It's clear that blunting the handling is a compromise you're not prepared to make, fair enough, others see the equation differently, it's a much wider picture. That's all, no more from me.

Try this: People fit winter tyres for a number of months, even though most of the UK's weather warrants less than twenty days. In the South maybe less. Now if you're driving a average daily car with handling characteristics similar to every other mass produced vehicle you may not really notice any difference in the handling. Why though would anyone go out and buy a car famed for it's balance then ruin it for 4 months of the year when you only need winters for three weeks anyway? You can have the same handling just drive a bit slower and this is what everyone I know does. Actually correct that, a friend drives his Porsche to Les Arcs twice a year and he uses winters.

[bertie]

popeyewhite said:

Yes, I tried it first on a tuned S8 which just wallowed a bit more, but was amazing on the frequent snow we get here. Next up was a 911 (996) Carrera which I thought awful on the winters. Three years later I still hadn't learnt my lesson and as my commute changed to one over the High Peak I fitted winters to an E63 AMG. Three weeks later I took them off. I'd rather drive a little slower and have the car behave as it was supposed to.

Fair play.

I leave the 458 on normals tyres as I wouldn't take that out if the weather is that bad, no point it's no fun.

But I've swapped the California T onto winters as I like to keep using it and whilst winters clearly do take the edge off on warmer dry days, to me on a car that's used daily so not being constantly pushed to the limit, the compromise is worth it for the extra poor weather grip.

But each to their own.

[NRS]

popeyewhite said:

FiF said:

How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?

Seriously? I've not had a go at anyone but have been feebly accused of this and that by at least three on this thread.

FiF said:

Ref the zealot accusation, as far as I'm concerned, if you took the trouble to read the thread,

Oh I've read the thread.

You have not had a go at anyone, but you said I had paraphrased your quote, when I had done no such thing. Your point in that winter tyres will make the handling worse is perfectly valid, but the wording of the post ended up with at least 3 or 4 people thinking your (personal) decision to drive slower in poor conditions and keep the max handling feel you get from summers was a generalist point. As far as I can see no one read your post the way you thought it your head, so your view is fair enough, but I don't think it's correct to accuse others of stuff when it was just a badly worded post (yes, I have done the same myself plenty of times, but it's then my fault, not the reading of everyone else).

[blueg33]

Evora on its winter wheels and tyres. So much more grip than summers on a cold day. I am a convert.

[theboss]

Just put Michelin Alpin PA4 on my F10 M5 and in a damp 5-6 degrees they certainly haven't dampened the relative usability of the car in these conditioms compared to MPSS. Very good first impression.

Golf 7R is on Dunlop WS5 as per earlier post. Obviously if it snows this would be my preferred mode of transport, but its good to have both cars winter ready.

Will have to post a pic on the dirty car thread, given that I live down a muddy farm track.

Edited by theboss on Sunday 4th December 21:04

[nickfrog]

popeyewhite said:

nickfrog said:

"Driving to the conditions" and "using skill" doesn't add friction and therefore safety.

Whose talking about safety? If you bother reading my post you'll see my point is that winters blunt a performance car's handling.

If you had bother reading my post, you'd have seen that my point is that UHP summers blunt a performance car's handling too, in environments where the limiting factors are not line of sight, traffic and licence conservation. Actually, even on the road they can do that by giving away a lot of lat grip, traction and braking potential compared to a good set of road legal semi-slick. I don't compromise either. Again, it's about the contact patch and the optimisation of it for the use intended and operational environment.

You might then as well have winters to maximise the use of the car when the temp is low so that you don't have to "drive to the conditions" as much (and therefore keep the same safety net) and not get stuck as a bonus.

[popeyewhite]

nickfrog said:

You might then as well have winters to maximise the use of the car when the temp is low so that you don't have to "drive to the conditions" as much (and therefore keep the same safety net) and not get stuck as a bonus.

My point is the conditions only occur for about 3 weeks a year at most, for most. As they mess with a performance car's handling then why bother? If the weather was truly awful I wouldn't go out, and nor should anyone else really, winters or not.

[popeyewhite]

bertie said:

Fair play.

I leave the 458 on normals tyres as I wouldn't take that out if the weather is that bad, no point it's no fun.

But I've swapped the California T onto winters as I like to keep using it and whilst winters clearly do take the edge off on warmer dry days, to me on a car that's used daily so not being constantly pushed to the limit, the compromise is worth it for the extra poor weather grip.

But each to their own.

That's it - you've weighed up risk/reward and made your decision.
Nice position to be in BTW.

[FiF]

popeyewhite said:

nickfrog said:

You might then as well have winters to maximise the use of the car when the temp is low so that you don't have to "drive to the conditions" as much (and therefore keep the same safety net) and not get stuck as a bonus.

My point is the conditions only occur for about 3 weeks a year at most, for most. As they mess with a performance car's handling then why bother? If the weather was truly awful I wouldn't go out, and nor should anyone else really, winters or not.

That's part of the equation though, truly awful weather is there an option to not go out, to work, or school, or shops, or whatever, or walk, or rely on public transport. In that case, ie leaving it on the drive then it's a perfectly sensible and very easy decision to not bother. The option of not turning out, walking / public transport isn't possible for everyone, and that's when it starts to get complicated. It's when individuals/ organisations who have a situation where they know they really do have to get somewhere fail to do so and then whine it's all the fault of someone else. You're lucky you don't have to turn out, but saying no one else should really is a perfect example of applying your own circumstances as being valid for every other person in the entire nation.

[ATM]

blueg33 said:

Evora on its winter wheels and tyres. So much more grip than summers on a cold day. I am a convert.

I dont see any ice in this pic. We really need to see more Winter. Come on Man!

[blueg33]

ATM said:

blueg33 said:

Evora on its winter wheels and tyres. So much more grip than summers on a cold day. I am a convert.

I dont see any ice in this pic. We really need to see more Winter. Come on Man!

Took a pic last night with ice on the drive, but it came out crap. Should have taken one next to the MX5 that slid odd the road in front of me

[Captain Smerc]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Fo the (wishful thinking) last time. Winters are not for 'truly awful weather'

Its minus 2 this morning with a thick frost, and I live rural.
Normal tyres will work.

Winter Tyres will be better

we get more than 3 weeks of the year with sub 5 degrees temperature and whilst less so this year, water on the road.
I happen to have in the shed someone winter tyres stacked alongside summer Bridgestones off the Porsche.
The difference in texture of the rubber is night and day, and you can only believe that there are 'engineers' and alike out there that may know better ?

This is exactly what they are for . 'Winters' grip better in lower temperatures on icy,damp,slushy muddy etc slippery road surfaces than standard rubber . Going , turning and braking are all very noictably and measurably improved . These conditions are common in the UK between about October and March . It's 1c at the moment in north Essex , I've got a thick frost covering the car and the road surface is icy , it's winter ! My cars are more controllable , predictable and have a greater safety margin with this type of tyre than standard ones . In short , they work very well in our variable climate . I got 2 cars , one with 'excessive' amounts of power , the other not so . Both are so much better to drive at this time of year.
Right , cuppa tea and a window scrape , and I'm off . Stay safe everyone .

Edited by Captain Smerc on Monday 5th December 10:56

[RicksAlfas]

popeyewhite said:

If the weather was truly awful I wouldn't go out, and nor should anyone else really, winters or not.

Good point.
But what usually happens to me is that the weather turns at home when I'm not there, but would like to be!