Winter Tyres or AT's on a 4x4

[billywhizzzzzz]

get m&s all seasons - i've had these on an xc90 that was great in the slush last year and food on everything else - my mud terrains on the defender are rubbish on road and not great on cold greasy winter roads. I was thinking of putting cooper AT3s on the defender - i've read great things about these for pretty much every surface

[anonymous-user]

Just out of curiosity why do people assume that M+S on a tyre means mud and snow? The M+S on a winter tyre stands for slush and snow but in German. Not sure why anyone would want to buy a road tyre that is good in mud?

[dfen5]

Think you'll find AT2s have been discontinued. There's a few about but you might struggle to get them soon.

Seen a few BFG AT equipped 4x4 doing well in snow but my old Disco' on a mix of tyres didn't get stopped either..

[Bill]

gottans said:

Just out of curiosity why do people assume that M+S on a tyre means mud and snow? The M+S on a winter tyre stands for slush and snow but in German. Not sure why anyone would want to buy a road tyre that is good in mud?

You sure? http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/buying...

[BFG TERRANO]

gottans said:

Just out of curiosity why do people assume that M+S on a tyre means mud and snow? The M+S on a winter tyre stands for slush and snow but in German. Not sure why anyone would want to buy a road tyre that is good in mud?

I thought a company called monarch produced the first m+s tyres? And they were mud and snow? Happy to be proved wrong!

[Art0ir]

Prepare for a noticeable drop in mpg.

[Art0ir]

Prepare for a noticeable drop in mpg.

[cologne2792]

I've just replaced all the Bridgestone Dueller H/T on my Ranger with Enduro A/T and they are dire - Very hard, very noisy and extremely prone to tramlining which is most noticeable in the wet. They don't seem to be any better in mud than the Duellers, are less grippy on a normal road but do seem slightly better on wet grass. After the Winter I'm back to my H/T as they seem better 95% of the time.

[urq20]

Performance comparisons with different types of 4WD tyres

Reprinted from the German 4WD magazine AutoBild Alles Allrad 8/2004

This table shows the results of a tyre test comparison on a 4WD using five different 265/70 R16 tyres from the same tyre manufacturer. The tyres tested are winter tyres, mud-terrain tyres, all-season tyres, all-terrain tyres and summer tyres.

The original fitment tyres of many 4WD vehicles that are based at the alpine resorts in Australia have been replaced with all-terrain or mud-terrain tyres because of the poor winter performance limits of the OE all-season and summer tyres. These off-road tyres are not designed by the tyre manufacturer as a severe service tyre for driving in snow and icy conditions either.

You can see from these tests the significant advantage and increased safety that is provided with the use of correct winter tyres over all the other tyre types.

Traction – snow (% difference to the tested winter tyre)
SJ6 - Winter tyre (5170 newtons)
MT2 - Mud-terrain tyre (3116 newtons) -39.7 %
ST1 - All-season tyre (3115 newtons) -39.7 %
AT2 - All-terrain tyre (3064 newtons) -40.7 %
PT1 - Summer tyre (2707 newtons) -47.6 %

Braking from 50 km/h - snow
SJ6 - Winter tyre (32.8 metres)
MT2 - Mud-terrain tyre (44.0 metres) +34.2 %
ST1 - All-season tyre (47.5 metres) +44.8 %
AT2 - All-terrain tyre (48.1 metres) +46.6 %
PT1 - Summer tyre (50.0 metres) +52.4 %

Handling - snow
SJ6 - Winter tyre (53.4 km/h)
MT2 - Mud-terrain tyre (47.7 km/h) -10.7 %
ST1 - All-season tyre (45.1 km/h) -15.5 %
AT2 - All-terrain tyre (42.4 km/h) -20.5 %
PT1 - Summer tyre (42.0 km/h) -21.3 %

The tables show test comparisons on a Mitsubishi Pajero using five different 265/70 R16 tyre types that are available Dunlop for 4WDs. These standardised tests are conducted using a calibrated winch system to measure take off torque (traction), a braking test from 50km/h and a handling or cornering test based on a 25 metre radius test track.

Reprinted from the German 4WD magazine AutoBild Alles Allrad 8/2004

[urq20]

M+S marking on tyres is very misleading.

Many AWD tyres are rated M+S, M&S or M/S, i.e., mud and snow.
Established by the USA Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA), the M+S designation refers only to the tread pattern.
The M+S standard calls for a tyre with grooves at the outside of the tread that extend into the centre.
It also means that 25% of the tyre tread contact surface be open, i.e., a more open tread pattern.

You will find the M+S symbol on most all-season tyres, on off-road and all-terrain tyres and even some high performance summer tyres may have this designation.
However, there are no performance standards to meet or traction tests to pass.
Any tyre with grooves at angles and with 25% of the tread void can be labelled as M+S.

And on icy snow and on ice, the open tread grooves have zero effect on performance.
Control of the vehicle comes strictly from equal parts of the tyre rubber compound that provides adhesion and the effects from the tread sipes.

In 1999, the RMA defined a real “snow” or winter tyre with its severe snow-rating.
Car and AWD tyres that pass this performance test and are embossed with the “snowflake on a mountain peak” icon.
Severe snow-rated tyres must provide traction at least 10% better than a standard reference test tyre.

The off-road, all-terrain and all-season M+S tyres cannot pass this test.
The M+S rating doesn’t mean much.
The severe snow rating does.

[tr7v8]

Art0ir said:

Prepare for a noticeable drop in mpg.

Didn't make a huge difference on the Grand Cherokee. Although as I said there was a bit of a hotch potch before so hardly a control!
Edited to say I know a good winter would probably better, In the winter but I wanted a one tyre does everything as I don't have the space to store a spare set. The GG ATs have been a good compromise & living in Kent we don't see the extremes of snow aka Alpine conditions (I hope ) When we had a bit of snow & ice a year or so ago they were quite adequate. And anything was better than a Jaguar on Summers which went nowhere when it was snowing.

Edited by tr7v8 on Friday 17th January 08:42

[MackemPete]

urq20 said:

Performance comparisons with different types of 4WD tyres

Reprinted from the German 4WD magazine AutoBild Alles Allrad 8/2004

This table shows the results of a tyre test comparison on a 4WD using five different 265/70 R16 tyres from the same tyre manufacturer. The tyres tested are winter tyres, mud-terrain tyres, all-season tyres, all-terrain tyres and summer tyres.

The original fitment tyres of many 4WD vehicles that are based at the alpine resorts in Australia have been replaced with all-terrain or mud-terrain tyres because of the poor winter performance limits of the OE all-season and summer tyres. These off-road tyres are not designed by the tyre manufacturer as a severe service tyre for driving in snow and icy conditions either.

You can see from these tests the significant advantage and increased safety that is provided with the use of correct winter tyres over all the other tyre types.

Traction – snow (% difference to the tested winter tyre)
SJ6 - Winter tyre (5170 newtons)
MT2 - Mud-terrain tyre (3116 newtons) -39.7 %
ST1 - All-season tyre (3115 newtons) -39.7 %
AT2 - All-terrain tyre (3064 newtons) -40.7 %
PT1 - Summer tyre (2707 newtons) -47.6 %

Braking from 50 km/h - snow
SJ6 - Winter tyre (32.8 metres)
MT2 - Mud-terrain tyre (44.0 metres) +34.2 %
ST1 - All-season tyre (47.5 metres) +44.8 %
AT2 - All-terrain tyre (48.1 metres) +46.6 %
PT1 - Summer tyre (50.0 metres) +52.4 %

Handling - snow
SJ6 - Winter tyre (53.4 km/h)
MT2 - Mud-terrain tyre (47.7 km/h) -10.7 %
ST1 - All-season tyre (45.1 km/h) -15.5 %
AT2 - All-terrain tyre (42.4 km/h) -20.5 %
PT1 - Summer tyre (42.0 km/h) -21.3 %

The tables show test comparisons on a Mitsubishi Pajero using five different 265/70 R16 tyre types that are available Dunlop for 4WDs. These standardised tests are conducted using a calibrated winch system to measure take off torque (traction), a braking test from 50km/h and a handling or cornering test based on a 25 metre radius test track.

Reprinted from the German 4WD magazine AutoBild Alles Allrad 8/2004

Have to say this is pretty conclusive, considering that most of my requirements are to get around in the snow and ice. Have you got a link to the article? I'm wondering how deep the snow was that they were testing in? We had about a foot last year.

Wonder if there are similar tests showing how winter tyres compare on mud and grass? also has AT tyre technology moved on much in the decade since this report was done?

[cptsideways]

Art0ir said:

Prepare for a noticeable drop in mpg.

Usually the complete & total opposite when compared with open block mud terrain tyres which most people would assume to be good for winter condition (usually wrong) which have the worst MPG's by a long long way.

Fitting a snowflake symbol tyre to a 4x4 which previous ran on M+S open block tyres will probably see the biggest improvement in MPG's the owner will have ever noticed!

[Bill]

MackemPete said:

Have to say this is pretty conclusive, considering that most of my requirements are to get around in the snow and ice. Have you got a link to the article? I'm wondering how deep the snow was that they were testing in? We had about a foot last year.

Wonder if there are similar tests showing how winter tyres compare on mud and grass? also has AT tyre technology moved on much in the decade since this report was done?

I'm not sure about conclusive, they could have been very good winter tyres but ATs that were poor in snow. Not all tyres are equal, whether they're summers, all-seasons, ATs or winters. And tech will have moved on on all fronts.

If your main concern is getting about in snow then winter tyres are the way forward. Plenty of 4x4 drivers use them year round or depending on your summer off road requirements swap for ATs or summer road tyres.

[Walter Sobchak]

What's a good all rounder that's available in 20s?,I was thinking about going for Pirelli Scorpions.

[thismonkeyhere]

I run Falken Landair A/Ts on the Landcruiser, and they're brilliant in the snow.

[MackemPete]

Bill said:

MackemPete said:

Have to say this is pretty conclusive, considering that most of my requirements are to get around in the snow and ice. Have you got a link to the article? I'm wondering how deep the snow was that they were testing in? We had about a foot last year.

Wonder if there are similar tests showing how winter tyres compare on mud and grass? also has AT tyre technology moved on much in the decade since this report was done?

I'm not sure about conclusive, they could have been very good winter tyres but ATs that were poor in snow. Not all tyres are equal, whether they're summers, all-seasons, ATs or winters. And tech will have moved on on all fronts.

If your main concern is getting about in snow then winter tyres are the way forward. Plenty of 4x4 drivers use them year round or depending on your summer off road requirements swap for ATs or summer road tyres.

Conclusive is probably too strong a word. I was making some assumptions, primarily that as the tyres were all from the same manufacture then they would be of similar quality in their respective fields. I know this isn't the case but there is a 30-40% difference in the performance between the snow tyres and the AT's in some tests. When you compare group tests of winter tyres there is often only a few percent covering all the tyres tested, hence i assumed that a good part of this 30-40% difference was down to the type of tyre.

[geeks]

Ran Yoko Geolander ATS2, great all round tyre, quiet, noticed no drop in economy, good on and offroad (except the really sludgy mud, then they were terrible, but they weren't relly designed for that, if you want to play in a bog, get suitable tyres) great in last years snow and seemed to have decent manners on the ice.

[Art0ir]

cptsideways said:

Art0ir said:

Prepare for a noticeable drop in mpg.

Usually the complete & total opposite when compared with open block mud terrain tyres which most people would assume to be good for winter condition (usually wrong) which have the worst MPG's by a long long way.

Fitting a snowflake symbol tyre to a 4x4 which previous ran on M+S open block tyres will probably see the biggest improvement in MPG's the owner will have ever noticed!

Um, that's what I said, non?

The OP was asking about moving from winter tyre to AT/MT.

[MackemPete]

Art0ir said:

cptsideways said:

Art0ir said:

Prepare for a noticeable drop in mpg.

Usually the complete & total opposite when compared with open block mud terrain tyres which most people would assume to be good for winter condition (usually wrong) which have the worst MPG's by a long long way.

Fitting a snowflake symbol tyre to a 4x4 which previous ran on M+S open block tyres will probably see the biggest improvement in MPG's the owner will have ever noticed!

Um, that's what I said, non?

The OP was asking about moving from winter tyre to AT/MT.

Yeah i'm considering the move from winters to AT's on my winter set of wheels. Neither set has mud tyres on. Cant imagine they would suit the rangie much