RE: BMW M235i: Driven
Discussion
SonicHedgeHog said:
Does the straight 6 engine in this car sound any good? I'm trying (and failing) to find a car I can fall in love with and engine note is a key ingredient.
It's all right but I wouldn't say it's anywhere near special. If you're after a really sorted, focussed sports saloon, I'd advise you to spend the cash on a really good E46 M3 and use some of the substantial change to bring the car up to scratch (new springs, dampers etc as necessary, CSL carbon airbox, cosmetics, any other mechanical or suspension attention needed). You'll still save a lot of money on that compared to the depreciation on a 235i over the first five years or so.RoverP6B said:
aeropilot said:
It might help your understanding of 'why' if you read up a bit on homolgation......
The E30 M3 wasn't a posers car, it was in effect the last 'true' ///M car, although you could maybe just make a case for the E92 M3 GTS.
Understood, but I don't quite comprehend why they were racing what was effectively a bored/stroked-out, M-fettled (albeit bhp-nearly-doubled!) 318i rather than a properly sorted six-cylinder - I would have thought that the vibrations of the out-of-balance 4-cylinder engine would make it undesirable for the kind of endurance racing (N24 and so on) to which the M3 was subjected...The E30 M3 wasn't a posers car, it was in effect the last 'true' ///M car, although you could maybe just make a case for the E92 M3 GTS.
s m said:
I believe it was flex/torsional rigidity of the 6-cylinder crank at high revs that put them off using something like the M20. Rosche knew he'd have to use high revs to obtain enough power as he was well aware of what Ford/Cosworth were doing with the Sierra project at the same time - the chassis guy on the E30 M3 project had many Ford contacts. Rosche's initial proposal was for a turbo 4-cylinder ( as he and von Falkenhausen/Motorsport had extensive turbocharging experience from Formula 1) but it was rejected. He warned the BMW board they might not be able to challenge for outright wins - they agreed on the S14 in the end
Yet not something which appeared to be a problem in the E36 or E46, with engines which were 50% bigger in cylinder count, about the same swept capacity per cylinder, and with a similar specific output - was this simply down to the advancement in metallurgy? I seem to recall the McLaren F1 engine doesn't rev stratospherically - only 7500rpm or so...RoverP6B said:
Yet not something which appeared to be a problem in the E36 or E46, with engines which were 50% bigger in cylinder count, about the same swept capacity per cylinder, and with a similar specific output - was this simply down to the advancement in metallurgy? I seem to recall the McLaren F1 engine doesn't rev stratospherically - only 7500rpm or so...
E36 and E46 M3 engines were based upon the later generation of M5x engines, rather than the earlier M20s. The S14 was effectively the 3,453cc M88 24 valve six, shorn of two cylinders (which gives exactly 2,302cc), rather than a "bored out M10". Although there is common lineage as the M30 six that became the M88 in Motorsport form was arrived at by adding two cylinders to the older M10 design - modular engine families in the late '60s.
7.5k for a 6.0 V12 in the early 90s was pretty high, I think the only one that exceeded it was the F50's engine at just over 8,000, not surprising, given that unit's origins - it came the other way of becoming a road car engine from a race engine first, max revs reduced, swept capacity increased for higher specific torque etc.
There's also the aspect of the same power from a physically smaller and lighter engine having advantages on track for handling and overall power-to-weight ratio. One thing that is commented upon in reviews of the E30 M3 based 6 cylinder transplants from ALPINA or Hartge is the loss of the M3's signature steering response and front end feel.
Edited by Zwolf on Thursday 30th January 11:58
Zwolf said:
E36 and E46 M3 engines were based upon the later generation of M5x engines, rather than the earlier M20s.
The S14 was effectively the 3,453cc M88 24 valve six, shorn of two cylinders (which gives exactly 2,302cc), rather than a "bored out M10". Although there is common lineage as the M30 six that became the M88 in Motorsport form was arrived at by adding two cylinders to the older M10 design - modular engine families in the late '60s.
7.5k for a 6.0 V12 in the early 90s was pretty high, I think the only one that exceeded it was the F50's engine at just over 8,000, not surprising, given that unit's origins - it came the other way of becoming a road car engine from a race engine first, max revs reduced, swept capacity increased for higher specific torque etc.
Yep, Werner Frohwein literally sawed 2 cylinders off an M88 head, plugged the water ducts and then trimmed it till it fitted on top of the 4-pot block The S14 was effectively the 3,453cc M88 24 valve six, shorn of two cylinders (which gives exactly 2,302cc), rather than a "bored out M10". Although there is common lineage as the M30 six that became the M88 in Motorsport form was arrived at by adding two cylinders to the older M10 design - modular engine families in the late '60s.
7.5k for a 6.0 V12 in the early 90s was pretty high, I think the only one that exceeded it was the F50's engine at just over 8,000, not surprising, given that unit's origins - it came the other way of becoming a road car engine from a race engine first, max revs reduced, swept capacity increased for higher specific torque etc.
They also concentrated on lightening the internals so 10,000 rpm was possible
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Largely agreed. If an M235i with optional LSD plus a few choice options is ~£35-40k, I'd be considering one of two alternatives, subject to whether it was going to be a daily driver or a weekend fun car. If the former, I'd be looking at a 1 M Coupé and the latter at an E46 CSL (or possibly as a CS manual to cover both bases) as both seem resistant to deprciation, offsetting the increased M running costs.
Don't care that the E46 CSL is a decade old and heaven forbid "not new", but I'm not swayed by a need to show my neighbours/the general public a BMW badge and current reg plate. I understand that for many that can trump concerns over driving experience, engine sound, chassis feel and so on - the preserve of we weird beards. The people who buy the slower 330i over the 335i because of how the engine sounds, responds and feels. It's still quick *enough* when extended and much more of a pleasure to do so and that's without going near a 100bhp/litre NA M engine...
Now the M3/4 has gone FI, there's absolutely zero appeal for me in choosing one over an ALPINA B3 Biturbo. Or "worse", a D3 and then we're into a whole different argument altogether.
Zwolf said:
One thing that is commented upon in reviews of the E30 M3 based 6 cylinder transplants from ALPINA or Hartge is the loss of the M3's signature steering response and front end feel.
Yes, I've heard that too, but then I think the B6 3.5S fulfils a different requirement to the M3, probably more of an Autobahn-hunter than a back-road/track blaster. Ideally both would be in the garage!I've never seen a review of both the M3-based B6 3.5S and the standard E30 B6 3.5 together though. I wonder how they compare, and whether the M3 changes are noticeable?
Leins said:
Yes, I've heard that too, but then I think the B6 3.5S fulfils a different requirement to the M3, probably more of an Autobahn-hunter than a back-road/track blaster. Ideally both would be in the garage!
No desire for the M3 here, but boatloads for the B6S. Leins said:
I've never seen a review of both the M3-based B6 3.5S and the standard E30 B6 3.5 together though. I wonder how they compare, and whether the M3 changes are noticeable?
Likewise, and I'd be keen to try a 333i too. anonymous said:
[redacted]
I haven't, but did enjoy an E88 135i M Sport very much, that with more poke, a revvier engine and sharper M chassis mentally added up to a very enticing drive, plus the looks are a factor, especially a ginger one. The M135i I find entirely visually uninteresting, the 2 has much more appealing shape and details to my eye, mainly as there's that dim echo of an e30 three box profile. Edited by Zwolf on Thursday 30th January 16:52
RoverP6B said:
I'm with Moose on this. Quality transcends age. M135i or 130i and a ton of cash? M235i or a used 911? Real petrolheads only care about greatness. If you can find a pristine W124, and there are still quite a few around, know that you stand in the presence of greatness. A BMW M6 may be in every quantitative and objective way a superior vehicle to a Jaguar E-type, but I don't need to tell you which one I'd have in a heartbeat...
Whether real petrolheads only care about greatness is a moot point. But this real petrolhead (who has owned a very tidy W124 in 500E flavour, by the way, amongst other esoteric machines) bought an M135i. Not for any reason other than it was a smallish, fun and very fast car that I could justify on the grounds that it was also a practical and reasonably economical 5dr hatchback that was entirely fit for our daily needs.The greatness of the M135i therefore, if greatness there be, for me is that it is not just a smallish, fun, very fast car that is also practical and economical, but that (praise be) in this modern age of efficiency and rules, it still offers the twin delights of a engine with more than four cylinders AND a manual gearbox at a thoroughly reasonable asking price. Mercedes take note. As a result I can forgive it some fugly headlamps.
The M235i is the same engineering package with the fugliness shifted from the front to the back and without the practicality. Oh and with a tidy surcharge. Ergo it is not as appealing a prospect, regardless of whether it might be 5% better to drive in circumstances I don't encounter from one month to the next. And that second-hand 997 for £40k suddenly become more relevant than it does to a discussion about an M135i...
Seen on some BMW forums that the price of the LSD for the M235 has been announced in Germany.......and photo's indicated that it looks like it could be a Draxler unit as well.
Anyway, the price......
2800 Euro's....
and I'm guessing that's without dealer fitting charge....
If so, I'd say you'll be looking at a bill for £3000+ for one from a UK dealer once fitting has been taken into account......
Anyway, the price......
2800 Euro's....
and I'm guessing that's without dealer fitting charge....
If so, I'd say you'll be looking at a bill for £3000+ for one from a UK dealer once fitting has been taken into account......
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