How do VW (and Audi) do it?
Discussion
10 Pence Short said:
Vladimir said:
That was the case 5-10 years ago but with all the recent recalls, I'm not so sure. Also the Japanese use thin watercolours to paint their cars.
The paint issue is typically defined by the laws on pollutants. In the 80s the Japanese had a reputation for rust (as did the southern half of Europe- Lancia Beta, anyone?).The most recent tin-worm-a-holics in the mass market are Mercedes. Which I believe are German.
I don't remember hearing of significant paint issues specific to far eastern manufacturers.
Don't think I will ever own another German car to much hype about them for what?
10 Pence Short said:
If you want something that feels well built, buy German. If you want something that's actually well built, buy Japanese.
There are of course exceptions and people will have their own stories, but pretty much every type of survey from both sides of the pond over the past 20 years can't be wrong.
This.There are of course exceptions and people will have their own stories, but pretty much every type of survey from both sides of the pond over the past 20 years can't be wrong.
Edited by 10 Pence Short on Saturday 25th January 09:32
I love the fact that people on PH quote personal experience as equating to the norm. They show no understanding of quant.
I love the quote "You sample size is small, your standard deviation is high, you conclusion means nothing".
I think the triumph of marketing and the human desire to have the next shiny thing and to a degree the Veblen effect are factors...
750turbo said:
No they are not, end of.
Well Audi were first to fully galvanised their vehicles before any volume produced car for a start(excepting Porsche). Chassis and body rust is fatal for cars. Parts can always be sourced from breakers/ aftermarket cheaply in years to come. Their cars are superbly engineered, have great fit and finish as well as neat design touches. Yes there are silly engineering defects (like I suffered leaky rubber inner door card seals that allow water into cars like the MK4, dodgy TT dashpods, coilpacks, injectors on diesel 2ls) but these are mostly third party supplier issues rather than VAGs fault
VAG encompasses VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Lamborghini, Bugatti . They are constantly rolling out new highly desirable models with new engines and technologies to satisfy human non fidelity so they cant perfect anything perfectly as they are doing so much. Same at their suppliers. I think they are an amazing company, way ahead of Daimler , BMW, Toyota, Ford, GM , Renault , Mazda etc
750turbo said:
gvij said:
VW/ Audi are well made cars, end of.
No they are not, end of.gvij said:
750turbo said:
No they are not, end of.
Well Audi were first to fully galvanised their vehicles before any volume produced car for a start(excepting Porsche). Chassis and body rust is fatal for cars. Parts can always be sourced from breakers/ aftermarket cheaply in years to come. Their cars are superbly engineered, have great fit and finish as well as neat design touches. Yes there are silly engineering defects (like I suffered leaky rubber inner door card seals that allow water into cars like the MK4, dodgy TT dashpods, coilpacks, injectors on diesel 2ls) but these are mostly third party supplier issues rather than VAGs fault
VAG encompasses VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Lamborghini, Bugatti . They are constantly rolling out new highly desirable models with new engines and technologies to satisfy human non fidelity so they cant perfect anything perfectly as they are doing so much. Same at their suppliers. I think they are an amazing company, way ahead of Daimler , BMW, Toyota, Ford, GM , Renault , Mazda etc
Geesus!
Presuming Ed said:
Having had every Golf from mk1 to mk6, I would say everything from mk5 onwads has been poorly built. VW's reputation was built from there brilliant marketing of the last 30 years and will need their cars to turn into the Lancia Beta before there repuration is damaged.
I actually somewhat agree with you. I had a new MK4 and my mum a new 5. The MK5 was more poorly built than the MK4 Things like parcel shelfs were cheaper and thinner If funkier with the golf balls. Carpets were thinner. Still well built don't get me wrong we parted with 25k here in Ireland for it. My mum suffered steering rack failure 3 times with hers. The trim although having neat design touchs is cheaply made. Same with new Audis. I was underwhelmed in a Audi showroom recently and test drove an A5. A nice car but a big step down on a MK1 TT in terms of apparant build quality but still way ahead of other brands. Perhaps its the CO2/Weight or just cost cutting. They still have some of the best styling and design touches out there. And lets look at cars like Mercs with their horrible screens bolted on as if aftermarket, BMW with their very poor overcomplicated dashs, the jap stuff is still way down there. Renault , Ford don't really do anything in my eyes Id want etc.Edited by gvij on Saturday 25th January 10:46
You will be hard pressed to find anyone working in the used car trade or maintenance side of things which have a good opinion of VAG in terms of quality and reliability.
The cars are often nice enough but the quality from the bits you don't see is certainly no better and often worse than PSA, FIAT etc.
They refuse to acknowledge design faults, change suppliers when the components are below par etc.
I think a lot of it comes from trying to build many of their cars in relatively high cost countries which means they have to use the cheapest and nastiest components and sub-assemblies in order to compete on cost.
The cars are often nice enough but the quality from the bits you don't see is certainly no better and often worse than PSA, FIAT etc.
They refuse to acknowledge design faults, change suppliers when the components are below par etc.
I think a lot of it comes from trying to build many of their cars in relatively high cost countries which means they have to use the cheapest and nastiest components and sub-assemblies in order to compete on cost.
gvij said:
750turbo said:
No they are not, end of.
Well Audi were first to fully galvanised their vehicles before any volume produced car for a start(excepting Porsche). Chassis and body rust is fatal for cars. Parts can always be sourced from breakers/ aftermarket cheaply in years to come. Their cars are superbly engineered, have great fit and finish as well as neat design touches. Yes there are silly engineering defects (like I suffered leaky rubber inner door card seals that allow water into cars like the MK4, dodgy TT dashpods, coilpacks, injectors on diesel 2ls) but these are mostly third party supplier issues rather than VAGs fault
VAG encompasses VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Lamborghini, Bugatti . They are constantly rolling out new highly desirable models with new engines and technologies to satisfy human non fidelity so they cant perfect anything perfectly as they are doing so much. Same at their suppliers. I think they are an amazing company, way ahead of Daimler , BMW, Toyota, Ford, GM , Renault , Mazda etc
gvij said:
Well Audi were first to fully galvanised their vehicles before any volume produced car for a start(excepting Porsche).
And there in lies the point. Audi/VW USED to be the leaders at this sort of thing. Now I have no proof either way. But I think they're doing the thing Merc did in the early 2000's. Cutting costs somewhere, and it shows in terms of quality of parts. How many T reg Audi A3/A4's do you see on a regular basis? How many Golf 3's? The early stuff. 80s/100s etc seem to go on forever. The later stuff falls apart after 10-15 years. Interiors particularly. the idea being that if the car falls apart the owner will upgrade to the newest version.gvij said:
Chassis and body rust is fatal for cars. Parts can always be sourced from breakers/ aftermarket cheaply in years to come.
That applies to pretty much every car on the road today.gvij said:
but these are mostly third party supplier issues rather than VAGs fault
Designed by VAG presumably and probably made by the cheapest supplier gvij said:
VAG encompasses VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Lamborghini, Bugatti . They are constantly rolling out new highly desirable models with new engines and technologies to satisfy human non fidelity so they cant perfect anything perfectly as they are doing so much. Same at their suppliers. I think they are an amazing company, way ahead of Daimler , BMW, Toyota, Ford, GM , Renault , Mazda etc
Mercedes will always be the class leader at the premium level. They had their aforementioned wobble. But they've pulled it back. IMO The interiors are just somehow nicer than the equivalent VAG or BMW.We had a MkV Golf that cost more to run than my M3 at the time - had to replace pretty much the whole fuelling system, pump, HT, plugs, coil packs, EGR. On top of that the A/C compressor failed, wheels corroded badly, alternator failed and it was very thirsty. We have a Mk6 now and its worlds apart - the engine is smooth and powerful, the DSG gearbox is largely smooth and it feels far better put together. 20k miles in and no bother so far.
The brand is very powerful and they do shift tons of them. Largely they are nice cars, although not exactly a hoot to drive.
The brand is very powerful and they do shift tons of them. Largely they are nice cars, although not exactly a hoot to drive.
750turbo said:
gvij said:
VW/ Audi are well made cars, end of.
No they are not, end of.krisdelta said:
We had a MkV Golf that cost more to run than my M3 at the time - had to replace pretty much the whole fuelling system, pump, HT, plugs, coil packs, EGR. On top of that the A/C compressor failed, wheels corroded badly, alternator failed and it was very thirsty. We have a Mk6 now and its worlds apart - the engine is smooth and powerful, the DSG gearbox is largely smooth and it feels far better put together. 20k miles in and no bother so far.
We never had any problem with our 5 other than steering racks and I think that was a supplier issue rather than VWs fault. Come to think of it we did replace the EGR. Everything else is great still. It has the Aisan 6 speed Automatic which is smooth, efficient and bulletproof. I think VAGS Multitronics had a reputation as Multitragics and the DSG I wouldn't touch out of warranty as the Mechantronics go on them at a cost of many many thousands.Point is you bought a 6 after a bad 5, why? The alternatives are the useless focus, meganes, corollas etc The Golf is the better car that's why.
A part failing through a "supplier issue" is every bit as much VW's fault as a part that they actually made failing. It's VW's job to quality control the parts they use.
I'm another person in the "if you want perceived quality, buy German; if you want real quality, buy Japanese (or Korean)" camp. I wouldn't honestly expect a Golf to be any more reliable than, say, a Citroen.
I'm another person in the "if you want perceived quality, buy German; if you want real quality, buy Japanese (or Korean)" camp. I wouldn't honestly expect a Golf to be any more reliable than, say, a Citroen.
A couple of years ago my brother and his wife and bought a 56 plate golf 1.4 ( with turbo and supercharger), within a month it was crunching into 2nd gear, cost the supplying garage over £700 to fix, then after 8 months the timing chain failed due to a weak part (known fault on forums). Just before they traded it in for a new car it started crunching into 2nd again. It only had 36k miles on when they bought it.
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