Driver aids and complacency.
Discussion
Given the amount of idiots you see on the motorway I'm all in favour of this kind of technology. Lets be honest, motorway driving is dull and the majority of people have no interest in driving a the best of times, let alone first thing on a wet cold morning when they're on their way to work. the problem is how safe are these systems in autonomous mode, and who's fault is it when one crashes? Google and others are getting there with autonomous cars.
A BMW that indicates before it pulls out? Revolutionary!
A BMW that indicates before it pulls out? Revolutionary!
My personal view is that cars need to either be driven (entirely) by a skilled driver, or remove the driver and let a computer take full control at all times, while the driver is free to do whatever they want. If cars are driving along the motorway with radar cruise control and overtaking by themselves, what is the driver going to be doing? The throttle, steering and braking are taken care of. Probably fiddling on their phone.
Presumably the law will still be against phone use/reading/sleeping whilst driving so I think giving some/most of the controls to a computer will lead to little attention paid in a lot of cases.
Presumably the law will still be against phone use/reading/sleeping whilst driving so I think giving some/most of the controls to a computer will lead to little attention paid in a lot of cases.
TonyRPH said:
Gaz. said:
Oh come on, you could see what Tony meant in his OP. Anything else is just arguing for the sake of it.
Thankyou. 
Can't you see that it's all part of the same evolving tech timeline? What was once unacceptable is now? This new unacceptable interference may become so in future, so it's worth framing the discussion in that context. Actually an interesting way to look at it IMO. (Even if he doesn't make his point clear enough for all.)
What if technology eliminated queues right up the chuff of tractors on B roads?
Drivers in general (non-PH) aren't confident in overtaking. They want to go faster but they can't so they inadvertently block your overtakes.
What if the computer did it for them? I think that's just plain awesome. I don't think it's much of a leap to say we would spend less on road furniture and hospitals because the computer wouldn't overtake on blind bends.
The poster who mentioned that planes have near misses, boats run aground and trains rear end each other somewhere on the network at least once a month, they undid their own argument. In the vast majority of these cases, it's because the computer was turned off. In one or 2 its because the computer wasn't maintained with up to date depth maps, but far and away the bigger cause is a human overriding the computer.
Drivers in general (non-PH) aren't confident in overtaking. They want to go faster but they can't so they inadvertently block your overtakes.
What if the computer did it for them? I think that's just plain awesome. I don't think it's much of a leap to say we would spend less on road furniture and hospitals because the computer wouldn't overtake on blind bends.
The poster who mentioned that planes have near misses, boats run aground and trains rear end each other somewhere on the network at least once a month, they undid their own argument. In the vast majority of these cases, it's because the computer was turned off. In one or 2 its because the computer wasn't maintained with up to date depth maps, but far and away the bigger cause is a human overriding the computer.
mrmr96 said:
<stuff>
The way I see it, is that even with ABS, the driver still has to drive the car.But with forthcoming technology, even less emphasis is being placed on actually driving the car, as it will tend to drive itself.
Whilst in some ways I can see the benefit to this, the disadvantages (for me at least) outweigh the advantages.
hairykrishna said:
We're rapidly approaching the point where complacency won't matter because the car will be driving itself. I don't see this 'auto overtake' as much of a problem. At least it means that the overtake is likely to be executed safely and with the correct signals.
I wonder if this feature will be region customisable ? After all, in some regions overtaking on the inside is legal. hairykrishna said:
Chris Type R said:
I wonder if this feature will be region customisable ? After all, in some regions overtaking on the inside is legal.
I would have thought that the software's region specific. Might have to be careful buying an import...
. Unless of course it uses the GPS to work all this out and operate correctly according to location, this seems likely.HemiCommander said:
Could be exciting if you bought a UK car and then took it to Europe and forgot to turn the system off . Unless of course it uses the GPS to work all this out and operate correctly according to location, this seems likely.
And as legislation changes, you'd need to make sure that the car has the latest firmware updates . Unless of course it uses the GPS to work all this out and operate correctly according to location, this seems likely.Chris Type R said:
HemiCommander said:
Could be exciting if you bought a UK car and then took it to Europe and forgot to turn the system off . Unless of course it uses the GPS to work all this out and operate correctly according to location, this seems likely.
And as legislation changes, you'd need to make sure that the car has the latest firmware updates . Unless of course it uses the GPS to work all this out and operate correctly according to location, this seems likely.Drive abroad and the headlamps change to driving on the right. Twisty road and the gearbox will hold a lower gear. Dual carrigeway beam pattern changes to suit a wider road. Dual carrigeway and adaptive cruise/crash sensors adjust their critea etc etc. GPS stuff has been on cars for the last 4-5yrs. Heaven knows what they are up to now.
deltashad said:
Matthen said:
Hmm... Sounds like the technology can be useful. Can all these cars be programmed to keep left when not overtaking? Sounds excellent to me.
I totally missed this part... you could be on to something there!!TonyRPH said:
mrmr96 said:
<stuff>
The way I see it, is that even with ABS, the driver still has to drive the car.But with forthcoming technology, even less emphasis is being placed on actually driving the car, as it will tend to drive itself.
Whilst in some ways I can see the benefit to this, the disadvantages (for me at least) outweigh the advantages.
There is also a BMW system which apparently helps apply opposite lock if you get into a big enough skid.
Plus all the google et al driving cars in San Fansisco.
If you want to have fun, go to a race track and do a trackday. If you want to be transported from A to B then getting a car to do most of the work for you doesn't seem like such a bad thing?
(See "horses" for an example of where what was previously transport is now primarily for leisure, as transport tech has moved on.)
doogz said:
...If you never break traction in your car, how can you say these devices are counter-productive. It'll have no effect on your driving, you'll never use it...
Quite right – in the case of a skilled driver.In the case of the unskilled, they'll never develop those skills – that feel for grip, if they've always been reliant on these devices to tune out the worst of their ham fisted efforts.
To an astute driver, a slight loss of traction is an indication that conditions are slippery.
To Captain Oblivious, relying on his traction control, the first he knows about slippery conditions is when he's wrapped around a lamppost.
doogz said:
...And yes, if you need to use your ABS on the road, it's probably because you've made a mistake, although it might not be. But if the safeguard is there and can stop your mistake turning into a big accident, what's the problem? How is that 'counter-productive'?
Risk compensation.If people feel safer, they come to rely on the system - even if they have no understanding of how it works.
The belief that your brakes will always stop you.
That's counter productive.
doogz said:
So, what do you think traction control does? If he's relying on his traction control, the point is that he shouldn't end up wrapped around said lamp post...
It stops you from wheelspinning. It doesn't stop you from sliding sideways... into a lamp post.doogz said:
...We'll have to agree to disagree...
I think so. 
I get to demonstrate these systems for a living, some are very good, others terrible
IMHO
ESP is simply brilliant on most cars, ABS/Torque Vectoring/Electric Diffs pretty good, Smart City Brake (Conti LIDAR systems) excellent, cruise & self parking generally very good
Active Cruise that drives as badly as the muppet in front worse when it cant be turned off! bad idea (eg active only), Radar Safety distance systems work sometimes but not always... & many can do weird things in traffic.
Self steering/avoidance as available on many Toyota/Lexus/BMW models quite good, its dials in oppo or counter steering if required or assists in the right direction not wrong, pretty good in my experience.
IMHO
ESP is simply brilliant on most cars, ABS/Torque Vectoring/Electric Diffs pretty good, Smart City Brake (Conti LIDAR systems) excellent, cruise & self parking generally very good
Active Cruise that drives as badly as the muppet in front worse when it cant be turned off! bad idea (eg active only), Radar Safety distance systems work sometimes but not always... & many can do weird things in traffic.
Self steering/avoidance as available on many Toyota/Lexus/BMW models quite good, its dials in oppo or counter steering if required or assists in the right direction not wrong, pretty good in my experience.
mrmr96 said:
Have you seen the Mercedes and Volvo systems which automatically apply the brakes if you're driving towards a car at the back of a stationary queue? That system applies the brakes FOR YOU.
There is also a BMW system which apparently helps apply opposite lock if you get into a big enough skid.
Plus all the google et al driving cars in San Fansisco.
If you want to have fun, go to a race track and do a trackday. If you want to be transported from A to B then getting a car to do most of the work for you doesn't seem like such a bad thing?
(See "horses" for an example of where what was previously transport is now primarily for leisure, as transport tech has moved on.)
I'm just checking, you are aware what this forums is? Well once was anyway..There is also a BMW system which apparently helps apply opposite lock if you get into a big enough skid.
Plus all the google et al driving cars in San Fansisco.
If you want to have fun, go to a race track and do a trackday. If you want to be transported from A to B then getting a car to do most of the work for you doesn't seem like such a bad thing?
(See "horses" for an example of where what was previously transport is now primarily for leisure, as transport tech has moved on.)
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