Aftermarket HID headlights - 35W or 55W

[NomduJour]

r11co said:

There is nothing more stupid

... than the amateur believing they know more than the professional engineers. A little learning is a dangerous thing etc.

Again - if aftermarket HID bulbs work so perfectly in headlamp reflectors designed for halogen bulbs, why do OEM HID lights not always use those exact same headlamp units? Surely "successful businesses" wouldn't waste money, time and effort developing pointlessly different designs?

[Mr2Mike]

OriginUnknown said:

But it's never going to be completely pitch dark above the beam cut-off surely? There will always be a bit of reflected light.

Not looking to argue btw.

On a projector lamp it is pretty close to this, because the shape is defined by a mask rather than a lens or reflector.

[Horse Pop]

r11co said:

Because your attention isn't going to be drawn to the ones that are aligned correctly, is it?

Perhaps there is something to that, although for this to be true there would have to be a 100% correlation between people with them fitted annoyingly and people that went for a colour that was noticeably HID. Not ruling that out by any means.

[ouch]

Mr2Mike said:

OriginUnknown said:

But it's never going to be completely pitch dark above the beam cut-off surely? There will always be a bit of reflected light.

Not looking to argue btw.

On a projector lamp it is pretty close to this, because the shape is defined by a mask rather than a lens or reflector.

If you look carefully at the photo you can see there's a light source behind the car (shadows in front of the front tyre) - so the wall will not be as dark as you'd expect.

What I find a little off putting on that photo is the comparative difference in intensity between the centre of the light pattern and the edges.

[r11co]

NomduJour said:

r11co said:

There is nothing more stupid

... than the amateur believing they know more than the professional engineers. A little learning is a dangerous thing etc.

I was talking about your inference that a £29.99 spend on ebay was a sure sign of a poor job. You clearly have a very closed mind, and a 'can't do' attitude.

As an extreme example of informed purchasing, I once bought a set of top quality Thule roof bars for £0.99 plus delivery from ebay. The reason I got them so cheap is because the seller listed them for one very obscure application, and I used my knowledge and research to realise that for the cost of an inexpensive fitting kit I could use them on my car.

By your blinkered, overcautious standards they are probably lethal.

NomduJour said:

Again - if aftermarket HID bulbs work so perfectly in headlamp reflectors designed for halogen bulbs, why do OEM HID lights not always use those exact same headlamp units?

As has been mentioned already in this thread, several car manufacturers (in the USA admittedly) did this exact thing. Plus, I have it on good authority that when HIDs started to become the 'must have' optional extra at least one manufacturer of one model (Mercedes W210) went out of their way to make the HID and standard headlamp units look different so that observers could tell which type of lamp was fitted even when they were switched off, as an issue of status!

Edited by r11co on Thursday 6th February 17:42

[NomduJour]

r11co said:

By your blinkered, overcautious standards they are probably lethal

Finding a bargain isn't quite the same thing as pretending the laws of physics don't exist.

r11co said:

As has been mentioned already in this thread, several car manufacturers (in the USA admittedly) did this exact thing

The example given was the 2005> Mustang. HIDs were a factory option from 2008 and the housings are completely different from the halogens.

Stop digging.

[r11co]

NomduJour said:

Finding a bargain isn't quite the same thing as pretending the laws of physics don't exist

Case not proven. You've made your point several times now with plenty of conviction and assertion but no evidence.

I've cited that hundreds of thousands of MOT passes for retrofitted HIDs (conservative estimate) are good enough reason to say you are mistaken.

By all means regale us with your explanation as to why all those MOT stations get it wrong day-in day-out, taking into account that they are using VOSA approved measuring equipment meaning there is no element of subjectivity or discretion involved in the headlamp aim test.

Edited by r11co on Friday 7th February 09:59

[V8forweekends]

Censorious said:

I couldn't see at all against oncoming traffic on rural roads with the halogen bulbs fitted; I had to stop and that's not safe as cars following me got impatient and didn't expect me to stop on NSL roads.

You need to see an optician, urgently.

[Censorious]

NomduJour said:

Censorious said:

Research!

What are the differences between halogen and HID bulbs and how they affect light and beam patterns and which products are most suitable to give as close as possible to the light beam and pattern of the original halogen bulbs.

Yes, that's the usual approach when people fit their £29.99 eBay HIDs.

Well I doubt that.

Think of it like this.

If you went to buy a replacement D2S or D2R HID bulb for a car with factory fitted HID it will cost you over £200 for just one single bulb.

What could that tell you about the quality of an entire kit consisting of ballasts, bulbs and wiring for anything less than £300?

[jdcampbell]

Censorious said:

Well I doubt that.

Think of it like this.

If you went to buy a replacement D2S or D2R HID bulb for a car with factory fitted HID it will cost you over £200 for just one single bulb.

What could that tell you about the quality of an entire kit consisting of ballasts, bulbs and wiring for anything less than £300?

It tells me that we're being ripped off for factory fitted bulbs!!

I paid around £80 for a kit from hids4u and was impressed with the quality of everything bar the bulb holder (which was fking appalling btw!!).

[r11co]

jdcampbell said:

If you went to buy a replacement D2S or D2R HID bulb for a car with factory fitted HID it will cost you over £200 for just one single bulb.

What the heck are you on about? Big brand D2R/S OEM HID bulbs can be had for as little as £30. Perfectly serviceable ones with lesser known branding can be had for half of that or less.

People are wising up to the rip-off, but some places are still gouging so you can still pay £300 (a bit like how you can still pay £50+ for a HDMI cable, if you are a complete idiot!)

Edited by r11co on Friday 7th February 12:23

[Censorious]

r11co said:

jdcampbell said:

If you went to buy a replacement D2S or D2R HID bulb for a car with factory fitted HID it will cost you over £200 for just one single bulb.

What the heck are you on about? Big brand D2R/S OEM HID bulbs can be had for as little as £30. Perfectly serviceable ones with lesser known branding can be had for half of that or less.

People are wising up to the rip-off, but some places are still gouging so you can still pay £300 (a bit like how you can still pay £50+ for a HDMI cable, if you are a complete idiot!)

Edited by r11co on Friday 7th February 12:23

IT WAS JUST AN ILLUSTRATION THAT FOR "PROPER" HID PARTS THE PRICE IS MUCH HIGHER AND THEREFORE YOUR CHINESE £30 EBAY JOB IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE SOMEWHAT LACKING IN QUALITY.

[r11co]

Censorious said:

IT WAS JUST AN ILLUSTRATION THAT FOR "PROPER" HID PARTS THE PRICE IS MUCH HIGHER AND THEREFORE YOUR CHINESE £30 EBAY JOB IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE SOMEWHAT LACKING IN QUALITY.

OSRAM 12V Original Equipment High Intensity Discharge (HID) D2R.

Edited by r11co on Friday 7th February 13:21

[Censorious]

r11co said:

Censorious said:

IT WAS JUST AN ILLUSTRATION THAT FOR "PROPER" HID PARTS THE PRICE IS MUCH HIGHER AND THEREFORE YOUR CHINESE £30 EBAY JOB IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE SOMEWHAT LACKING IN QUALITY.

OSRAM 12V Original Equipment High Intensity Discharge (HID) D2R.

Edited by r11co on Friday 7th February 13:21

ALSO SAYS NORMAL PRICE IS £100

ALSO, A LOT OF THE STUFF YOU SEE ADVERTISED CHEAP AS OSRAM OR PHILLIPS ISN'T.

[NomduJour]

r11co said:

MOT passes ... headlamp aim test

As I said, stop digging.

[r11co]

NomduJour said:

As I said, stop digging.

Not good enough!

Put up or shut up - explain why your assertions are right despite the MOT passes or accept you are wrong.

[r11co]

Censorious said:

ALSO SAYS NORMAL PRICE IS £100

If they can be sold at that price at all then the company must be making a profit or their business model is fundamentally wrong.

[NomduJour]

r11co said:

Not good enough!

Put up or shut up - explain why your assertions are right despite the MOT passes or accept you are wrong.

What on earth does a cursory MOT inspection prove, other than the lights are shining in roughly the right direction when shone at a wall six feet away?

It has absolutely nothing to do with the basic conceptual problems of fitting an HID light source into a reflector designed for a halogen bulb. If you are still incapable of understanding that the different light sources require different designs of reflector and housing to perform as they should there really is no point in continuing.

[V8forweekends]

r11co said:

Not good enough!

Put up or shut up - explain why your assertions are right despite the MOT passes or accept you are wrong.

MOT passes can be obtained for a variety of questionable items that should in theory fail - empty DPFs are one, and given the massive number of illegal number plates there are (including rears on bikes), I can't believe everyone is swapping them just for MOT time - the fact is, some MOT folk are "friendly" and some are, frankly, ignorant (I have anecdotal experience - related to HIDs)

http://www.partinfo.co.uk/files/MOT%20Changes%20-%...

"This raises the question of whether these checks apply to vehicles fitted with after-market HID
lighting kits. These kits convert conventional halogen headlamps to HID Xenon and they are
widely sold and fitted to vehicles used on the road. The Department for Transport considers
that after-market systems should be required to meet the same safety standards as that applied
in respect of these lamps at vehicle Type Approval. Therefore, in order to pass the MOT
test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp
cleaning and self-levelling systems"

The fact that these things are being incorrectly passed isn't a proof that they aren't annoying and dazzling to others.

Edited by V8forweekends on Friday 7th February 13:52

[r11co]

NomduJour said:

What on earth does a cursory MOT inspection prove, other than the lights are shining in roughly the right direction when shone at a wall six feet away?

And you believe that this is how the headlamp aim test is carried out?

Approved headlamp aim testers

Some people really are as dumb as they sound.

V8forweekends said:

http://www.partinfo.co.uk/files/MOT%20Changes%20-%...

"This raises the question of whether these checks apply to vehicles fitted with after-market HID
lighting kits. These kits convert conventional halogen headlamps to HID Xenon and they are
widely sold and fitted to vehicles used on the road. [b]The Department for Transport considers
that after-market systems should be required to meet the same safety standards as that applied
in respect of these lamps at vehicle Type Approval[/b]. Therefore, in order to pass the MOT
test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp
cleaning and self-levelling systems"

This is an opinion expressed by a private company. It has no authority and bears no relation to the test in practise.

Plus, if strict type approval standards were applied instead of MOT test standards then cars would fail for missing warning stickers under the bonnet or on the windscreen, or for aftermarket steering wheels, or even swapping the steering or road wheels for a manufacturer part from a different model in the range. There is a very good reason therefor why the assertion above in bold is not the case.

Edited by r11co on Friday 7th February 14:26