RE: In defence of the paddle shifter: PH Blog

[RenesisEvo]

Crusoe said:

Fit an s2000 with a pdk and would you say the same? Quite happy with my manual in that and would have it in a gt3 if I could afford it.

You touch on and yet completely miss a key point in the manual/auto conundrum, IMO. In an S2000 (for example), I suspect most people will be able to keep up with the pace of the car and the power delivery to use and enjoy a manual gearbox, road or track, without running into difficulty or finding the manual gearboxes hampers their experience. However, the sheer pace of something like a GT3 will start to highlight manual gearshifts as a potential weak point in the experience when driving harder, e.g. having to rush multiple downshifts into a corner, or having that rush of power spoilt by a lengthy awkward moment with the clutch out.

So with the ballistic pace of the current generation of sportscars, the way I see it, you have two options: a) learn the skills to manage a manual 'box at the required pace (time and effort required; risky but definitely rewarding), or b) use the auto that negates the problems, and brings the added bonus of being easier to live with day-to-day, e.g. traffic jams, and the novelty of flappy paddles (I love manuals but I'm aching to try a real car with paddles...). On top of what Chris has discussed above about matching engines to gearboxes. E.g a manual Nissan GT-R anyone? IMO it wouldn't work, it just wouldn't suit the car's character or insane pace.

Perhaps the latest sportscars are just too capable and too fast for all but the talented or die-hard enthusiasts to find more enjoyment than hindrance from manual gearboxes, and that's why so many opt for the auto.

[si_xsi]

i realy like those shoes, where are they from?

pdk on the 991 for me, brother in laws carrera shifts are amazing, much smoother than the dct on the e92 M3 it replaced.

manual on anything pre 997.

[alastairw]

Interesting point of view, but in the end there is no choice so a mute point! I have had cars with both types... GTR with a paddle shift and a V12V with a manual box. Personally you cannot beat the feeling of a well executed manual change. It might not be faster or as efficient but it just feels so right.

I will stick with my 997 turbo manual for now - one of the best manual boxes you can get.

[Gorbyrev]

You may well be right Chris. Sadly, few of us beside your good self and Sierra Mike will ever found out. According to the very helpful chap at Graypaul Edinburgh the entire UK allocation of 991 GT3's are all sold (including the very dapper metallic black on black wheels car awaiting delivery in the showroom)and there will be no more. No demonstrators either. Oh well at least there is still a press car He was tight lipped about the prospect of an RS though which I found strangely encouraging.

[Freddie44]

Great thoughts Chris, always enjoy reading.

Just to add something slightly odd to the mix.. when I sit at an airport, sit at my desk, sit in a field and think about driving my 997 Gen 1 GT3 my first impulsive thought is always about changing gear through the difficult but beautifully precise box.. 1st.. wait.. to 2nd.. wait.. wait.. wait.. slam into 3rd... we are now truly away... massive smiles..

I don't know what I'm trying to say other than the fact I think it makes the car for me and without it I wouldn't experience this joy.

The 991 however sounds like a different beast so perhaps this isn't relevant..

[DonkeyApple]

If I were going for a record at the Ring then I would categorically choose paddles.

If I am going for a drive or want to experience the fun of driving is stick with a manual. Personally I feel that the more of your job you hand to a computer the less engaging and rewarding your job becomes.

I'd put money on most people smiling sooner driving off in a Caterham than a 911 in reality.

[twonames]

I couldn't agree more and frankly I'm surprised no-one seems to have made this point already. While I love my 997.1 GT3 to bits, really making progress on busy A and B roads always seems harder than it should be due to the combination of relatively peaky engine and long gearing. Perhaps to many that is part of the challenge but I don't think the gearing really helps make the most of the engine in those situations (short of driving everywhere in 2nd or 3rd gear).

IIRC there was an interview with one W. Rohrl a few years ago (think it was in Evo) where he was asked what his favourite 911 was and he said turbo / GT2 for the road and GT3 for the track as he preferred the easily accessible torque of the turbo engine for road use.

By the same token if ever there was an engine that would have been great with a decent manual box it's the AMG 6.2 motor...just not sure Merc capable of producing a decent one

[VladD]

V8KSN said:

gsuk1 said:

Why not have a proper manual gearbox and adjust the engine to suit???

Emissions regs I guess...

I'm guessing sales is a factor too. More and more people are buying automated manuals, so why spend time and money developing a gearbox and engine changes for a small group of people? Maybe they'll make a GT2 with a manual, which too will have small sales, but for which they can charge a premium for the changes.

[ChawenHalo]

OK fair point but:
GT3 have never been about max performance, but about enjoyment
they're cashing in, its cheaper to develop that engine with that gearbox combo?
why not give customers the choice?

[Ollywood]

With all this talk about the demise of the manual gearboxes I recently decided to go back to manual after years of driving automatics. A few stalls and crunched gears later I must say that I love that analogue feel and rewards you get from having to move your left leg in sync with you arms. It is really sad that Porsche and others are starting to move away from manual boxes it is taking away skill that for me is an integral part of the pleasure of driving. Maybe they should somehow try to make a auto option in a manual box so you could choose from the best of both worlds.

[sagarich]

Sierra Mike said:

I've put some miles on my 991 GT3 now and a manual gearbox just wouldn't work with this car anywhere near as well as the PDK-S in sport mode. That said, I drove my 997.2 GT3 yesterday and I have to say that the steering has always been wonderful but even more so now when compared with the 991 GT3. The issue should be the steering - not the gearbox!

I should add that I believe that one of the causes for concern regarding a PDK on the GT3 is that the PDK on the 991 sucks ... in my not so humble opinion of course! The PDK-S however, is nothing short of outstanding and should be offered across the range.

Edited by Sierra Mike on Friday 7th February 11:30

Hang on... You own a 991 GT3 and a 997.2 GT3?

[Dave Hedgehog]

i like paddles, but then i have all the deftness of foot of a drunken silver back on roller skates


i want a GT3 so bad.... it just looks perfect

[renaultgeek]

How many used 911's have over revs logged in their system that void the warranty or whatever it is that happens.

Shows people aren't skilled enough to drive these at the upper limits.

[kambites]

cerb4.5lee said:

Three pedals will always be the preference for me even though they are slower than a twin clutch alternative.

Three pedals is a preference for me because they're slower and harder to use than the twin-clutch alternative.

[velocgee]

Good argument (below). I’m with you and CH on this one.

I for one don't care for this whole manual vs. paddles thing (though given the choice I would go paddles). I just want to be able to choose the gear I want, when I want it. I love driving but no longer have this affection for the old H-pattern box. But I still hold great affection for [motorbike] sequentials (I get warm and fuzzy just thinking back to those times of hauling the front brake and banging down through the gears...but not too quick, mind )

Companies like Porsche created the [GT/ sportcars] market. If they so choose to alter their product whilst keeping the essence of it, then that is their call. I don't think by sticking a paddle-shift gearbox they are intentionally trying to alienate some their die-hards fans. But rather they are saying 'look, we like the manual box...but this box we are offering is really rather good. It is the future (now). And you will grow to like it...very much!
We’ll all (ok, most) grow to accept these boxes, much in the same way we did with power steering, ABS*, etc..

• yes I know a over-reactive abs is a real passion killer

RenesisEvo said:

Crusoe said:

Fit an s2000 with a pdk and would you say the same? Quite happy with my manual in that and would have it in a gt3 if I could afford it.

You touch on and yet completely miss a key point in the manual/auto conundrum, IMO. In an S2000 (for example), I suspect most people will be able to keep up with the pace of the car and the power delivery to use and enjoy a manual gearbox, road or track, without running into difficulty or finding the manual gearboxes hampers their experience. However, the sheer pace of something like a GT3 will start to highlight manual gearshifts as a potential weak point in the experience when driving harder, e.g. having to rush multiple downshifts into a corner, or having that rush of power spoilt by a lengthy awkward moment with the clutch out.

So with the ballistic pace of the current generation of sportscars, the way I see it, you have two options: a) learn the skills to manage a manual 'box at the required pace (time and effort required; risky but definitely rewarding), or b) use the auto that negates the problems, and brings the added bonus of being easier to live with day-to-day, e.g. traffic jams, and the novelty of flappy paddles (I love manuals but I'm aching to try a real car with paddles...). On top of what Chris has discussed above about matching engines to gearboxes. E.g a manual Nissan GT-R anyone? IMO it wouldn't work, it just wouldn't suit the car's character or insane pace.

Perhaps the latest sportscars are just too capable and too fast for all but the talented or die-hard enthusiasts to find more enjoyment than hindrance from manual gearboxes, and that's why so many opt for the auto.

[Sierra Mike]

Ollieb7 said:

This Hypothesis is all well and good but it will not get rid of that nagging need to find out which would be better - auto or manual. And to do that you need the two real things back to back.

I agree ...




The one on the left is easier and faster whereas the one on the right is more engaging and fun. Both will put a smile on your face but the 997 is more likely to do it at lower speeds on public roads

sagarich said:

Hang on... You own a 991 GT3 and a 997.2 GT3?

Thanks sagarich - sorry but I couldn't help myself. It's a weakness that my wife doesn't understand. I've told her that I've joined a support group but didn't tell her it was PistonHeads!

Edited by Sierra Mike on Friday 7th February 14:22

[sagarich]

Sierra Mike said:

The one on the left is easier and faster whereas the one on the right is more engaging and fun. Both will put a smile on your face but the 997 is more likely to do it at lower speeds on public roads

sagarich said:

Hang on... You own a 991 GT3 and a 997.2 GT3?

Thanks sagarich - sorry but I couldn't help myself!

You sir are a legend!

[Sierra Mike]

sagarich said:

You sir are a legend!

Not at all but thanks for the compliment; I just have a weakness

More seriously though, on the day I collected the 997.2 GT3 I remember feeling so privileged to be behind the wheel of such a masterpiece of engineering and I still do. It's a GREAT car.

[cerb4.5lee]

kambites said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Three pedals will always be the preference for me even though they are slower than a twin clutch alternative.

Three pedals is a preference for me because they're slower and harder to use than the twin-clutch alternative.

Its nice to see someone else that appreciates the old days...rather than all this playstation paddle flicking obsession that's the norm today.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Crusoe said:

Fit an s2000 with a pdk and would you say the same? Quite happy with my manual in that and would have it in a gt3 if I could afford it.

A good point well made