RE: In defence of the paddle shifter: PH Blog
Discussion
kambites said:
Oh I appreciate the modern 'boxes - they're incredible things; I just don't like them.
Similar to me then really...I respect how quick the are & smooth changing & also the performance figures they generate but if I was to drive a car for the very last time it wouldn't be one with two pedals & paddles. I've had an s2000 and it would be no better with a twin clutch box (especially as it has one of the best shift feelings of any box made!). The ferocity of the 991 gt3 engine above 8K is unbelievable (and I used to race bikes) therefore having driven a 991 GT3 and being a big 3 pedal fan I can only agree with Mr. H - the new GT3 engine is so explosive between 7.5K and 9K that you'd not be able to change gear fast enough with a manual to keep up with it. I'm a lesser mortal and after an hours blast I had to have a break - the mental effort of processing all the information a 991 GT3 presents you with and using it to drive the car briskly down a twisty road is fabulously immersive and utterly exhausting. A manual car can be more satisfying to drive, but that car and box are perfectly suited.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Crusoe said:
Fit an s2000 with a pdk and would you say the same? Quite happy with my manual in that and would have it in a gt3 if I could afford it.
A good point well madeFor me Harris' argument is moot as I'll never have the disposable to buy a GT3 of any variety, much less a 991. But I do know, that as ham-fisted a driver as I am, I nevertheless would always choose the manual option over the automatic (whether PDK blah-blah-blah, with or without flappy-paddles, or even a simple old-fashioned slushbox, they are all automatic transmissions, let us remember - you are slave to the software). Only a full manual transmission lets me select the rpm and gear exactly when I want to - I may screw it up (frequently) but I am in control, and if I know my car (as I should) I will be pretty good at knowing what mix of rpm and gear is required for any particular situation. Software, no matter how well-programmed, cannot foresee every single driving environment and will on occasion leave me feeling like I am merely a passenger and not the driver.
I know I am an old Luddite on this, and I know I could trim seconds off my shift times with an autobox, but I'm too old to G.A.S. frankly. I'd rather have the satisfaction of trying to make the perfect shift manually.
I know I am an old Luddite on this, and I know I could trim seconds off my shift times with an autobox, but I'm too old to G.A.S. frankly. I'd rather have the satisfaction of trying to make the perfect shift manually.
The argument is the same surely just that the s2000 has a great gearbox already. If you put a pdk in an s2000 and sold it now it would make it much faster for most people (hard to launch with a manual and hard to stay in the vtec zone when you are concentrating on other things) and people would love the non-turbo engine and high revs. It is such a nice manual gearbox though and such a part of the experience that you enjoy using it even though it isn't as quick to shift the gears yourself.
I don't see any benefit in the enjoyment of the 911 that would come from replacing a nice manual with an electronic button. I agree that more people buying new would want the paddles and it will make it give better performance statistics and lower emissions because of the wonky rules, but given the choice I would want a manual.
I would save up for a manual 996 or 997 Gt3, the 991 would be fun to borrow but I wouldn't want to own it long term as it has lost a big part of its driver interaction.
I don't see any benefit in the enjoyment of the 911 that would come from replacing a nice manual with an electronic button. I agree that more people buying new would want the paddles and it will make it give better performance statistics and lower emissions because of the wonky rules, but given the choice I would want a manual.
I would save up for a manual 996 or 997 Gt3, the 991 would be fun to borrow but I wouldn't want to own it long term as it has lost a big part of its driver interaction.
Crusoe said:
The argument is the same surely just that the s2000 has a great gearbox already. If you put a pdk in an s2000 and sold it now it would make it much faster for most people (hard to launch with a manual and hard to stay in the vtec zone when you are concentrating on other things) and people would love the non-turbo engine and high revs. It is such a nice manual gearbox though and such a part of the experience that you enjoy using it even though it isn't as quick to shift the gears yourself.
I don't see any benefit in the enjoyment of the 911 that would come from replacing a nice manual with an electronic button. I agree that more people buying new would want the paddles and it will make it give better performance statistics and lower emissions because of the wonky rules, but given the choice I would want a manual.
I would save up for a manual 996 or 997 Gt3, the 991 would be fun to borrow but I wouldn't want to own it long term as it has lost a big part of its driver interaction.
Maybe I'm completely wrong here, but I thought that the point is not performance vs enjoyment but rather if you have a manual gearbox, since you can't cope with the ferocity of the engine you lose some "engine enjoyment" if you like. Something like having a manual gearbox on an LFA.I don't see any benefit in the enjoyment of the 911 that would come from replacing a nice manual with an electronic button. I agree that more people buying new would want the paddles and it will make it give better performance statistics and lower emissions because of the wonky rules, but given the choice I would want a manual.
I would save up for a manual 996 or 997 Gt3, the 991 would be fun to borrow but I wouldn't want to own it long term as it has lost a big part of its driver interaction.
A computer will always be more efficient and accurate than a person (barring errors occuring) but God forbid we live in a world where driving is purely about efficiency.
I think the best driving experience comes from the driver feeling very connected to exactly what is happening. The more automated things become the less satisfaction can be experienced by the driver as most of what is occurring is not due to the driver.
How satisfying is doing a 1/4 mile using launch control with an automatic gearbox. What about the second time you do it? The third time?
This is obviously a very specific example but you it's to emphasize my point - the less the driver is responsible for with regard to the car, the less exciting and engaging the drive becomes.
But then I guess that's why I got a TVR
I think the best driving experience comes from the driver feeling very connected to exactly what is happening. The more automated things become the less satisfaction can be experienced by the driver as most of what is occurring is not due to the driver.
How satisfying is doing a 1/4 mile using launch control with an automatic gearbox. What about the second time you do it? The third time?
This is obviously a very specific example but you it's to emphasize my point - the less the driver is responsible for with regard to the car, the less exciting and engaging the drive becomes.
But then I guess that's why I got a TVR
For me, the times that a 3 pedal manual is great are the times when you are NOT "on it". I.e., just cruising, being able to heal and toe and blip it down a cog or two, or when you want to say quickly do a 180 in a small gap (where the pdk/dcts always seem to leave me floundering in neutral for what feels likes ages), or when you just want to spin the wheels off the lights, or a million other times where i want to be driving the car, and not it me.....
For me the paddles shift gearbox is the future. Like Screw top wine bottles vs corks, itunes vs vinyl it is easier to retreat to the old stuff and suffer with your art than to go with the flow.
An old codger told me that a sports car needs to a convertible as you need to hear the tyres and other parts of the car to get the best out of it. Drive a Caterham and you can see his point.
But not everyone wants to drive a Caterham. It is nicer to leave it in auto when you are on the motorway or in traffic and you can enjoy the car more as you are in a better mood.
An old codger told me that a sports car needs to a convertible as you need to hear the tyres and other parts of the car to get the best out of it. Drive a Caterham and you can see his point.
But not everyone wants to drive a Caterham. It is nicer to leave it in auto when you are on the motorway or in traffic and you can enjoy the car more as you are in a better mood.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Crusoe said:
Fit an s2000 with a pdk and would you say the same? Quite happy with my manual in that and would have it in a gt3 if I could afford it.
A good point well madeI see exactly what Chis is saying and I agree that certain engines / cars suit a paddle shift.
If anybody misses the old days we should revert to crash gear boxes, non servo assisted brakes etc. Times move on and it's no good moaning. What is important is the overall package and in the case of paddles how they suit the car. I've had paddles for eight years now & do not miss a manual.. if you want a manual car there are loads out there, but I'm sure you will be moaning about the overall package.
Driven a 981 Cayman 2.7 and Boxster S with PDK. I found that the Boxster needed the extra power to be interesting because the box just made driving it too easy. The Cayman was more fun with less power because it was more involving for me as a driver.
Don't get me wrong, PDK is amazing, if you want an auto it's about as good as it gets. But here's the issue I have, after the initial excitement of PDK, I flipped it into auto and left it there. Because quite frankly, it's that good at swapping cogs, it may as well do it. In a luxury saloon, 4X4, whatever, hell yes, I want PDK. In a sports car, I do not.
This is the crux of it for me. You buy a sports car to enjoy the thrill of driving. It's not about how fast it goes around the ring (unless you live there), it's not about it's top speed that you'll never see. It's about how much fun the act of driving is for you as a driver and PDK/flappy paddles detract from that. They remove a layer of control. The fact you can't change gear as flawlessly or as fast is utterly irrelevant. The fact is when YOU perform a perfect gear change it's satisfying. When you pull a paddle, it just isn't.
It's the future for lots of reasons, I know. For me it means I shan't be buying any more modern cars.
Don't get me wrong, PDK is amazing, if you want an auto it's about as good as it gets. But here's the issue I have, after the initial excitement of PDK, I flipped it into auto and left it there. Because quite frankly, it's that good at swapping cogs, it may as well do it. In a luxury saloon, 4X4, whatever, hell yes, I want PDK. In a sports car, I do not.
This is the crux of it for me. You buy a sports car to enjoy the thrill of driving. It's not about how fast it goes around the ring (unless you live there), it's not about it's top speed that you'll never see. It's about how much fun the act of driving is for you as a driver and PDK/flappy paddles detract from that. They remove a layer of control. The fact you can't change gear as flawlessly or as fast is utterly irrelevant. The fact is when YOU perform a perfect gear change it's satisfying. When you pull a paddle, it just isn't.
It's the future for lots of reasons, I know. For me it means I shan't be buying any more modern cars.
Edited by juansolo on Friday 7th February 20:15
I think many here are getting a little carried away with the hype surrounding the 991 GT3.
It's not the fastest car in the universe. It really would be possible to keep up with it if it had a good manual box. I've never heard any fast manual supercar, many of which were much faster than the 991 GT3 being too fast for the manual gearbox. This is utter tripe. A little reality check, if I may, the 991 GT3 is heavier and much more complex than the 997, this is not normally considered positive progress with sports cars. The power to weight ratio has not improved over the 3.8 997 GT3 RS. I never heard of anyone claiming that was too fast or, more to the point, too fast for it's lauded manual box.
One major problem with paddleshifts is that many here are already denouncing the 991's PDK as 'utter s
te'. How long before the 991 GT3's PDK is superceded? No-one ever reported that the 997 GT3's manual made the 996 GT3's manual redundant. These things date as quickly as lap tops.
The one issue that everyone is avoiding is that if Porsche cared as much for their enthusiasts as they did about their balance sheet they would have offered a choice of transmission. The crime is not the PDK box, it's the removal of choice.
It's not the fastest car in the universe. It really would be possible to keep up with it if it had a good manual box. I've never heard any fast manual supercar, many of which were much faster than the 991 GT3 being too fast for the manual gearbox. This is utter tripe. A little reality check, if I may, the 991 GT3 is heavier and much more complex than the 997, this is not normally considered positive progress with sports cars. The power to weight ratio has not improved over the 3.8 997 GT3 RS. I never heard of anyone claiming that was too fast or, more to the point, too fast for it's lauded manual box.
One major problem with paddleshifts is that many here are already denouncing the 991's PDK as 'utter s
te'. How long before the 991 GT3's PDK is superceded? No-one ever reported that the 997 GT3's manual made the 996 GT3's manual redundant. These things date as quickly as lap tops.The one issue that everyone is avoiding is that if Porsche cared as much for their enthusiasts as they did about their balance sheet they would have offered a choice of transmission. The crime is not the PDK box, it's the removal of choice.
Edited by The Pits on Friday 7th February 20:25
It's a fascinating subject, and to some extent it depends as much on where the car is going to be used as anything else -assuming, of course, that it's not just a track day toy.
But, years ago, if I saw an early 80's 911 turbo, I had a great deal of respect for its courageous owner. Only 4 speeds, but the car needed skilful handling, not just to get the best out of it, but to avoid it trying to kill you.
Posers bought an Aston V8 auto, because the amazing Vantage was a pig to start.
The clutch on a Countach would mean your left thigh was rather larger than your right - embarrassing in a night club.
In short, the problem with the pdk is that anyone can drive it. I've no doubt the car and gearbox are wonderful - the problem is that I've now no idea about the driver.
But, years ago, if I saw an early 80's 911 turbo, I had a great deal of respect for its courageous owner. Only 4 speeds, but the car needed skilful handling, not just to get the best out of it, but to avoid it trying to kill you.
Posers bought an Aston V8 auto, because the amazing Vantage was a pig to start.
The clutch on a Countach would mean your left thigh was rather larger than your right - embarrassing in a night club.
In short, the problem with the pdk is that anyone can drive it. I've no doubt the car and gearbox are wonderful - the problem is that I've now no idea about the driver.
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