RE: Evora S Sports Racer: Intro
Discussion
Shnozz said:
Interesting theory but I am not sure I agree. And even if correct, does that not make new/nearly new price comparables more necessary?
No, it makes depreciation rates of new/nearly new comparisons more necessary. Initial purchase price is largely irrelevant these days because so few cars are ever bought new. If depreciation falls, lease prices will fall, and that's what matters to most buyers. I'd be interested to know what proportion of cars in the UK are actually owned by their first registered keeper. I'd be surprised if it's more than 20%.
Edited by kambites on Friday 11th April 14:23
Shnozz said:
blueg33 said:
Just read the update comparing used Evora and used Cayman/911.
I think Dan may have missed an important point, look at what you get with a £35-40k Evora against the equivalent price 911 or Cayman and even more so if you pitch a £30k n/a Evora againt a £30k porsche.
You generally have to buy a much older leggier Porsche, but then the Evora depreciation has pretty much flattenned out and the Porsche will continue going down.
I researched historic prices hard before I bought along with running costs especially tyres and servicing, tyre life, brake life etc. I do financial models for work, so I wrote asimple one comparing all of the cars I was considering at a £30-35k price point. In terms of total cost the Evora was cheapest surprisingly followed by a 996 Turbo (virtually nil depreciation on the turbo, but hefty maintenance costs). DB9 and Masersati Grantourismo were eyewatering as daily drivers.
I agree that's where the real market comparison sits, but the supply of those £35k cars relies on those purchasing the £65k ones from the manufacturer, and for that journalists need to spread the word and make the comparisons. Once the entire s/h Evora market runs out of ex-Lotus management cars there needs to be the next generation of new Evora purchasers.I think Dan may have missed an important point, look at what you get with a £35-40k Evora against the equivalent price 911 or Cayman and even more so if you pitch a £30k n/a Evora againt a £30k porsche.
You generally have to buy a much older leggier Porsche, but then the Evora depreciation has pretty much flattenned out and the Porsche will continue going down.
I researched historic prices hard before I bought along with running costs especially tyres and servicing, tyre life, brake life etc. I do financial models for work, so I wrote asimple one comparing all of the cars I was considering at a £30-35k price point. In terms of total cost the Evora was cheapest surprisingly followed by a 996 Turbo (virtually nil depreciation on the turbo, but hefty maintenance costs). DB9 and Masersati Grantourismo were eyewatering as daily drivers.
kambites said:
Shnozz said:
Interesting theory but I am not sure I agree. And even if correct, does that not make new/nearly new price comparables more necessary?
No, it makes depreciation rates of new/nearly new comparisons more necessary. Initial purchase price is largely irrelevant these days because so few cars are ever bought new. 
blueg33 said:
Shnozz said:
blueg33 said:
Just read the update comparing used Evora and used Cayman/911.
I think Dan may have missed an important point, look at what you get with a £35-40k Evora against the equivalent price 911 or Cayman and even more so if you pitch a £30k n/a Evora againt a £30k porsche.
You generally have to buy a much older leggier Porsche, but then the Evora depreciation has pretty much flattenned out and the Porsche will continue going down.
I researched historic prices hard before I bought along with running costs especially tyres and servicing, tyre life, brake life etc. I do financial models for work, so I wrote asimple one comparing all of the cars I was considering at a £30-35k price point. In terms of total cost the Evora was cheapest surprisingly followed by a 996 Turbo (virtually nil depreciation on the turbo, but hefty maintenance costs). DB9 and Masersati Grantourismo were eyewatering as daily drivers.
I agree that's where the real market comparison sits, but the supply of those £35k cars relies on those purchasing the £65k ones from the manufacturer, and for that journalists need to spread the word and make the comparisons. Once the entire s/h Evora market runs out of ex-Lotus management cars there needs to be the next generation of new Evora purchasers.I think Dan may have missed an important point, look at what you get with a £35-40k Evora against the equivalent price 911 or Cayman and even more so if you pitch a £30k n/a Evora againt a £30k porsche.
You generally have to buy a much older leggier Porsche, but then the Evora depreciation has pretty much flattenned out and the Porsche will continue going down.
I researched historic prices hard before I bought along with running costs especially tyres and servicing, tyre life, brake life etc. I do financial models for work, so I wrote asimple one comparing all of the cars I was considering at a £30-35k price point. In terms of total cost the Evora was cheapest surprisingly followed by a 996 Turbo (virtually nil depreciation on the turbo, but hefty maintenance costs). DB9 and Masersati Grantourismo were eyewatering as daily drivers.
No idea what the finance deals are like on the Evora. When I enquired about upgrading the Exige for the new one I was offered a reasonable finance deal of about 5% IIRC. After having my nuts cut off at age 18 on £18k's worth of car finance for the young and stupid I have never borrowed money against anything other than property since then but the deals Lotus offered certainly didn't jump out as being any worse than the market as a whole.
I think once again it falls back to perception, however. The Lotus, even the Evora, are more of a toy. A usable toy, and no different in many respects to, say, a 911. But in the minds of the majority the 911 is the safer choice and I would hazard a guess that dilutes itself further in that it's a safer bet to borrow money against than financing any Lotus - irrespective of what the depreciation curves indicate and what should (in italics for kambites) be used as the graph to consider before borrowing against).
Shnozz said:
I've not really looked at the PCP route on sports cars to be honest but when buying a TT daily last year they actually looked quite attractive when having regard to depreciation etc.
No idea what the finance deals are like on the Evora. When I enquired about upgrading the Exige for the new one I was offered a reasonable finance deal of about 5% IIRC. After having my nuts cut off at age 18 on £18k's worth of car finance for the young and stupid I have never borrowed money against anything other than property since then but the deals Lotus offered certainly didn't jump out as being any worse than the market as a whole.
I think once again it falls back to perception, however. The Lotus, even the Evora, are more of a toy. A usable toy, and no different in many respects to, say, a 911. But in the minds of the majority the 911 is the safer choice and I would hazard a guess that dilutes itself further in that it's a safer bet to borrow money against than financing any Lotus - irrespective of what the depreciation curves indicate and what should (in italics for kambites) be used as the graph to consider before borrowing against).
I see what you mean - i get to use my toy every day, even on the school run I think that is what the Evora does mixes both worlds pretty well as does a Porsche its just a fine bias in the Evora towards toy and Porsche towards sensible. Now a GT3 on the other hand........No idea what the finance deals are like on the Evora. When I enquired about upgrading the Exige for the new one I was offered a reasonable finance deal of about 5% IIRC. After having my nuts cut off at age 18 on £18k's worth of car finance for the young and stupid I have never borrowed money against anything other than property since then but the deals Lotus offered certainly didn't jump out as being any worse than the market as a whole.
I think once again it falls back to perception, however. The Lotus, even the Evora, are more of a toy. A usable toy, and no different in many respects to, say, a 911. But in the minds of the majority the 911 is the safer choice and I would hazard a guess that dilutes itself further in that it's a safer bet to borrow money against than financing any Lotus - irrespective of what the depreciation curves indicate and what should (in italics for kambites) be used as the graph to consider before borrowing against).
I think if I could have afforded a 991 or maybe a Gen 2 997 the choice would have been closer. The Evora was a head and heart choice as I would always have had the nagging worry about the 997/Cayman engine especially in a daily driver. I still fancy a Porsche and will own one in the future, maybe when I am a bit older and less flexible
Zyp said:
Can I just ask what you think the issue is with a 997/Cayman engine as it keeps cropping up?
At the same price point of an Evora you'd be into 3.4 or 3.6 DFi engine territory - i.e, very reliable.
The engine issues are widely reported and affect the 3.6's as well as the 3.8's. My choice of 997 would be the 3.8 but that is probably the highest risk engine.At the same price point of an Evora you'd be into 3.4 or 3.6 DFi engine territory - i.e, very reliable.
I don't need to list the reported issues, and i know it only effect a smallish number of cars, but the nagging doubt would always be there. I mate of mine in the village is a Porsche specialist and like most people with knowledge of the cars admits that the incidence of engine problems eg bore scoring is higher that you would normally expect. As a weekend toy I would live with the risk (used to own a Tuscan) as a daily driver then it has more relevance to me.
As I have said previously, there was no one single thing I weighed up pros and cons of both cars, did a financial model and fell inlove with telepathic steering which conveniently was on the car with the lowest running costs. Even if the Evora had higher costs, I would have still gone that way, for now.
braddersm3 said:
Really like these but £65k is £20k to much surely!..shame but competition in the form of Boxster and Cayman is pretty tough and now the F Type coupe is out I can't see Lotus shifting many.
Just to put that in perspective... first 3 months of 2014, Italy (where you have serious economic recession, credit crunch, property tax on cars above 250 hp: 20 EUR per hp above that threshold, etc.), some sales figures:204 Porsche 991;
109 Porsche 981;
50 Ferrari 458;
41 Jaguar F-Type;
less than 10 Lotus cars (no exact figure disclosed).
Kamox said:
braddersm3 said:
Really like these but £65k is £20k to much surely!..shame but competition in the form of Boxster and Cayman is pretty tough and now the F Type coupe is out I can't see Lotus shifting many.
Just to put that in perspective... first 3 months of 2014, Italy (where you have serious economic recession, credit crunch, property tax on cars above 250 hp: 20 EUR per hp above that threshold, etc.), some sales figures:204 Porsche 991;
109 Porsche 981;
50 Ferrari 458;
41 Jaguar F-Type;
less than 10 Lotus cars (no exact figure disclosed).
)blueg33 said:
The engine issues are widely reported and affect the 3.6's as well as the 3.8's. My choice of 997 would be the 3.8 but that is probably the highest risk engine.
I don't need to list the reported issues, and i know it only effect a smallish number of cars, but the nagging doubt would always be there. I mate of mine in the village is a Porsche specialist and like most people with knowledge of the cars admits that the incidence of engine problems eg bore scoring is higher that you would normally expect. As a weekend toy I would live with the risk (used to own a Tuscan) as a daily driver then it has more relevance to me.
As I have said previously, there was no one single thing I weighed up pros and cons of both cars, did a financial model and fell inlove with telepathic steering which conveniently was on the car with the lowest running costs. Even if the Evora had higher costs, I would have still gone that way, for now.
Everything else aside (it matters not one jot to me about what car is best for anyone else) there are no bore score issues with the DFi engines.I don't need to list the reported issues, and i know it only effect a smallish number of cars, but the nagging doubt would always be there. I mate of mine in the village is a Porsche specialist and like most people with knowledge of the cars admits that the incidence of engine problems eg bore scoring is higher that you would normally expect. As a weekend toy I would live with the risk (used to own a Tuscan) as a daily driver then it has more relevance to me.
As I have said previously, there was no one single thing I weighed up pros and cons of both cars, did a financial model and fell inlove with telepathic steering which conveniently was on the car with the lowest running costs. Even if the Evora had higher costs, I would have still gone that way, for now.
Its a bit like those that say Lotus engines always had problems with head gaskets - they didn't have problems with the Toyota engines, but mud sticks unfortunately!
ravon said:
...and your cutaway isn't an "S", so it's missing the 40kg of supercharger mounted on the top of the engine !
Where did you get your 40kg weight for the supercharger from?Must admit I've never weighed one so you may be right, but I've carried a fair few and I'm impressed by my strength if they actually are 40kg
srob said:
ravon said:
...and your cutaway isn't an "S", so it's missing the 40kg of supercharger mounted on the top of the engine !
Where did you get your 40kg weight for the supercharger from?Must admit I've never weighed one so you may be right, but I've carried a fair few and I'm impressed by my strength if they actually are 40kg
My guess would be something like 10kg for the charger itself?
Nohedes said:
Oh dear, just when I thought some balance was about to break out on this thread, you come up with this gem!
Absolute nonsense
Not really, its an exageration to make a point. 911 feels closer to the A6 than the Evora, but I am not saying its the same as an A6. Put simply, my granny could get into a 911, she couldn't get into the Evora. 911 is easier to live with, Evora more compromised as a daily driver. Absolute nonsense
blueg33 said:
Not really, its an exageration to make a point. 911 feels closer to the A6 than the Evora, but I am not saying its the same as an A6. Put simply, my granny could get into a 911, she couldn't get into the Evora. 911 is easier to live with, Evora more compromised as a daily driver.
Only from the point of the wide sills. Nothing else about the Evora is compromisedGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff