RE: Evora S Sports Racer: Intro
Discussion
blueg33 said:
Nohedes said:
Oh dear, just when I thought some balance was about to break out on this thread, you come up with this gem!
Absolute nonsense
Not really, its an exageration to make a point. 911 feels closer to the A6 than the Evora, but I am not saying its the same as an A6. Put simply, my granny could get into a 911, she couldn't get into the Evora. 911 is easier to live with, Evora more compromised as a daily driver. Absolute nonsense
911 - 1400kgs, rear engined, NA, flat-six, petrol, rear drive, 2-door coupé
A6 - 1750kgs, front engined, turbocharged, V6, diesel, four-wheel drive, 4-door saloon
Edited by Nohedes on Friday 11th April 22:57
The 911 is a GT car, it drives like a GT car; the Evora is slightly more of a sports car and it drives more like one; neither drives anything like an Audi estate. 
I can sort of see what people are getting at though - the 911 has become rather... numb. I know it's a cliche to say it's become "too good" to be interesting, but I think there's an element of truth in it. They've gone so far down the "jack of all trades" route, at least as far as a smallish 2+2 sports coupe can, that the inevitable other half of that saying is starting to make itself felt.
I can sort of see what people are getting at though - the 911 has become rather... numb. I know it's a cliche to say it's become "too good" to be interesting, but I think there's an element of truth in it. They've gone so far down the "jack of all trades" route, at least as far as a smallish 2+2 sports coupe can, that the inevitable other half of that saying is starting to make itself felt.
Edited by kambites on Friday 11th April 22:49
Perhaps it's a GT car in your opinion, but I see it as no less a sports car than the Cayman S (987) I ran before my 911, and I'm not sure what makes the Evora any more of a sports car other than it's harder to get into and is more rare.
I expect one of the reasons 911s are more popular than the Evora is that there is a duality to the car that is very appealing to some buyers. It can be comfortable, quite practical, reasonably economical and safe, but when required you can stick it sport plus mode and it's every bit the exciting sports car.
I'm told the Evora has better steering. It's a bit cheaper too, but then you'd expect that as they've cut corners to achieve that (e.g. buying in engines). The Porsche on the other hand has a vastly better NA engine with >100hp/litre, sounds better, is faster, better made, lighter, more practical, more economical, has a nicer interior, lower CO2/tax, more up to date technology and wasn't made in a shed in Norfolk.
I expect one of the reasons 911s are more popular than the Evora is that there is a duality to the car that is very appealing to some buyers. It can be comfortable, quite practical, reasonably economical and safe, but when required you can stick it sport plus mode and it's every bit the exciting sports car.
I'm told the Evora has better steering. It's a bit cheaper too, but then you'd expect that as they've cut corners to achieve that (e.g. buying in engines). The Porsche on the other hand has a vastly better NA engine with >100hp/litre, sounds better, is faster, better made, lighter, more practical, more economical, has a nicer interior, lower CO2/tax, more up to date technology and wasn't made in a shed in Norfolk.
RoverP6B said:
The Toyota V6 is a hang sight less likely to blow up than the Porsche flat-six, and Hethel is by no means a shed...
There are no known problems with the current DFI engines that have been in 911 and Boxster/Cayman for several years, which are the cars we're taking about. Please keep up!Compared to Zuffenhausen, Hethel is a bit of a shed IMO of course (have been to both).
The paint started flaking off my VX220 when it had 500 miles on it so I'm bitter through experience not prejudice!
Tonyringtone said:
Out of curiosity just visited the PH Porsche forum and not a single post or sarcastic comment from a Lotus fan or owner. I can only conclude Porsche owners must still be searching! whilst Lotus owners have already arrived!!
Or perhaps as they are mostly (according to this thread) non-enthusiasts they don't care much about Loti?
Nohedes said:
RoverP6B said:
The Toyota V6 is a hang sight less likely to blow up than the Porsche flat-six, and Hethel is by no means a shed...
There are no known problems with the current DFI engines that have been in 911 and Boxster/Cayman for several years, which are the cars we're taking about. Please keep up!Compared to Zuffenhausen, Hethel is a bit of a shed IMO of course (have been to both).
The paint started flaking off my VX220 when it had 500 miles on it so I'm bitter through experience not prejudice!
You could say that Gaydon is a shed when compared Zuffenhausen, but both Hethel and Gaydon are modern factories just producing smaller volumes.
As for paint flaking off, yet it can happen and to any car, it is particularly difficult with polyester bodies as the resin continues to cure for years and does indeed damage the paint. Similar issues occured with Renault Alpines and Ferrari 308's anongst others. Lotus seem to have fixed that issue.
I would agree that Porsche boxer engines have more character than the Toyota but change the exhaust and the toyota gets more character. The 6cyl boxer in my Outback sounds similar to the Porsche when you put your foot down.
I think that the point the Lotus owners are trying to make (in my case not very eloquently) is that the Porsche and the Lotus are much closer together than people seem to think. They both excel in slightly different areas and the final choice is not at all cut and dried.
Tonyringtone said:
Out of curiosity just visited the PH Porsche forum and not a single post or sarcastic comment from a Lotus fan or owner. I can only conclude Porsche owners must still be searching! whilst Lotus owners have already arrived!!
I would love to own a Lotus but I'm not willing to splash £50k-£60k on the current cars. Nor will many other people.Lotus need to identify where they went wrong and sort themselves out. With a brand new Boxster/Cayman, a brand new Corvette Stingray and a brand new Alfa 4C in the market there is some serious competition out there.
Lotus needs fewer fans and more owners.
Ozzie Osmond said:
I would love to own a Lotus but I'm not willing to splash £50k-£60k on the current cars. Nor will many other people.
Lotus need to identify where they went wrong and sort themselves out. With a brand new Boxster/Cayman, a brand new Corvette Stingray and a brand new Alfa 4C in the market there is some serious competition out there.
Lotus needs fewer fans and more owners.
Definately needs more owners, but then TBH it has always been a bit of a niche brand. It will never get to Porsche Volumes and the resultant exposure without absolutely huge investment, and its not like Jaguar Landrover that already had big markets.Lotus need to identify where they went wrong and sort themselves out. With a brand new Boxster/Cayman, a brand new Corvette Stingray and a brand new Alfa 4C in the market there is some serious competition out there.
Lotus needs fewer fans and more owners.
We also need to remember that it is widely considered that Porsche was struggling by selling only sports cars. Badge engineering a VW SUV went a long way to keeping Porsche alive and giving them the resources to develop the new sports car models.
I find it tricky to assess just why Porsche's are aspiration, I can't put my finger on the exact reason. When I was a student the drivers of XR3i's all seemed aspire to a Porsche 944, when they became yuppies the aspiration went up to 911's, when the got families Porsche delivered the Cayenne right on time. So, I wonder whether Porsche have veryu successfull ridden the wave (in the UK at least) of the Thather materialism that started in the 80's. Lotus on the other hand didn't! Neither did TVR, Reliant, Panther, Alpine etc
Just taken a book off the bookshelf about sports cars illustrating the top 500 from 1940's to the 2000's. The car on the cover is a Boxster.
The comments on the 911 being like an Audi A6, obviously it's not literal but when I had a 997 Carrera for a year I often commented that it felt like a step up from an Audi. The plain looks and interior are mostly to blame I think, although i'd never level the same criticism at the old man's 997 Turbo S so it's entirely subjective.
But also, on the 997 Carrera I had I think the ride and handling were well overrated; it had pretty sloppy body control despite only riding OK and understeered heavily, although the steering was decent. The powertrain was by far the stand out item, absolutely fantastic. It was a lovely machine, but didn't bond with it in the slightest. When the time came to hand it back I was spending a lot of time with Evoras at work and, despite being very aware of the shortcomings they had at the time, the choice between a 6 month old Evora and a 3 or 4 year old 997 wasn't difficult.
I actually think the Evora is closer to the 993 than the more recent 911's; compliant ride, lots of feedback, slightly basic but everything you need. I suppose that's as much a criticism as it is a compliment being a 15 year old design!
But also, on the 997 Carrera I had I think the ride and handling were well overrated; it had pretty sloppy body control despite only riding OK and understeered heavily, although the steering was decent. The powertrain was by far the stand out item, absolutely fantastic. It was a lovely machine, but didn't bond with it in the slightest. When the time came to hand it back I was spending a lot of time with Evoras at work and, despite being very aware of the shortcomings they had at the time, the choice between a 6 month old Evora and a 3 or 4 year old 997 wasn't difficult.
I actually think the Evora is closer to the 993 than the more recent 911's; compliant ride, lots of feedback, slightly basic but everything you need. I suppose that's as much a criticism as it is a compliment being a 15 year old design!
Ozzie Osmond said:
Lotus needs fewer fans and more owners.
Or the opposite. Lotus seem to find themselves in an unhappy middle-ground where their development expenses are too great to only sell to enthusiasts but their cars are too compromised and underdeveloped to sell to the mainstream.Edited by kambites on Saturday 12th April 11:00
The fact that "The Wookie" has such an excellent pedigree as a racing driver, and working in the industry , developing cars, makes me think that my views on the engine position of the Evora being a handicap must we wrong, but I still feel, development money/cost no object Lotus would never go for an axle mounted rear engine over a proper transaxle layout, would this be a fair assessment ?
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