RE: Evora S Sports Racer: Intro
Discussion
shoestring7 said:
kambites said:
shoestring7 said:
kambites said:
The Elise and Evora aren't Caterham Sevens. 
An Elise isn't a Boxster.
SS7
I love driving Caterhams but limit that to arrive and drive BaT Caterham hires on track once or twice a year. Some people use them everyday, but personally the compromises one has to put up with would quickly override the pleasures with pain.
Equally, the Elise is too compromised for some to enjoy the purity. Likewise, the Boxster compromised, albeit less so, and so it goes on. For the majority, however, the Boxster (and 911) offer enough practicality (normal road dynamics) that it's seen as less compromised and yet a fantastic sports car.
I've had TVR x 3, Elise x 2 and then swapped to a Boxster S for a few years when circumstances meant I needed something that was "normal" Mon-Fri and yet still fun. It was largely uncompromised and for that reason perfectly suited for that function. It was good fun when I did want to drive rather than travel; no Lotus but it was painless where a Lotus would have a degree of putting up with "stuff".
I can't deny I didn't miss the purity of the drive, or the specialness that seems absent from all but GT3 Porkers, and for that reason, when my circumstances changed again and I didn't need a 1 car fits all solution, I went back to an Exige. Horses for courses.
shoestring7 said:
Suckered into buying the blingy wheels then?
I've never driven a Boxster which rides as well as the S2 Elise at speed (note: I haven't driven a 981, but I've driven most of the relevant options on the older cars). Obviously it has other advantages, the most obvious being noise levels. For what it's worth, the Elise also has a much better ride than my wife's Skoda Octavia so I'd imagine the Evora rides much better.
Edited by kambites on Friday 25th April 11:36
You certainly can't argue that Porsche outsell Lotus 10 v 1. However, I always find it quite interesting that in motorsport valley, car owners who work for F1 teams prefer to own a Lotus, by about the same ratio. Have done for years. You would think F1 people would know what makes a good car.
C43
C43
TVR had huge enthusiasm from a small band of very dedicated owners and fans. It wasn't selling enough cars and went bust.
Lotus has huge enthusiasm from a small band of very dedicated owners and fans. It isn't selling enough cars.... No serious manufacturer can survive on selling only five cars a day. At the opposite extreme Toyota are selling nearly 30,000 cars a day. Meanwhile Lotus parent Proton is struggling, especially in UK, and clearly the current situation cannot continue. The article extracts below date from October 2013,
"The [Proton] car company, now owned by DRB-HICOM, started out in its home country of Malaysia in 1983 and produced the country’s first domestic car. By the late-1980s, imports began to arrive in the UK initially through Lada dealers, and once the 1990s dawned Proton became the fastest-selling new car brand ever with more than 22,000 cars sold in just two years.
"More products arrived throughout the 1990s and the firm even took advantage of holding the keys to Lotus, giving a sporty makeover to its insipid Mitsubishi Colt-based Satria hatchback.
"Nowadays, the firm doesn’t produce anything as so proudly flamboyant as the GTi. Instead, its range consists of three lines: the cheap but unremarkable Savvy city car; the even more unremarkable Satria Neo supermini; and the desperately old Gen-2 hatchback, saloon and an LPG variant. There has been the promise of new product in the shape of a saloon and an MPV called the Exora, but it would seem that some dealers couldn’t wait any longer.
"Proton is set to introduce more than three brand new models this year and beginning of next,’ Smith told us. ‘I’ve already been to a confidential meeting at the HQ in Bristol and driven the new cars – the introduction of new models will really freshen the brand.
"On the question of the dismal sales figures, Smith replied: ‘We haven’t been selling cars because we’ve had a shortage of products – basically we sold our last lot of stock too quickly, so had to stop marketing. If anything, Proton and ourselves have been too successful – perhaps a bit too big for our boots in a way – and we have a very positive outlook.
"Next year, we look to sell more than 100 cars – that’s just a rough idea as we don’t know what the volume figures will be. We expect Proton cars to be selling like hotcakes early in 2014.’
Whilst DRB-Hicom is a big business assembling cars for other companies (including Merc S-class) it has achieved almost nothing in terms of designing and engineering its own cars. No doubt the Lotus purchase was intended to help on exactly this front but there's very little sign of progress. Meanwhile the Koreans are turning themselves into proper global manufacturers of cars they design and engineer themselves.
So back where we started - Lotus needs to be selling more cars.
Lotus has huge enthusiasm from a small band of very dedicated owners and fans. It isn't selling enough cars.... No serious manufacturer can survive on selling only five cars a day. At the opposite extreme Toyota are selling nearly 30,000 cars a day. Meanwhile Lotus parent Proton is struggling, especially in UK, and clearly the current situation cannot continue. The article extracts below date from October 2013,
"The [Proton] car company, now owned by DRB-HICOM, started out in its home country of Malaysia in 1983 and produced the country’s first domestic car. By the late-1980s, imports began to arrive in the UK initially through Lada dealers, and once the 1990s dawned Proton became the fastest-selling new car brand ever with more than 22,000 cars sold in just two years.
"More products arrived throughout the 1990s and the firm even took advantage of holding the keys to Lotus, giving a sporty makeover to its insipid Mitsubishi Colt-based Satria hatchback.
"Nowadays, the firm doesn’t produce anything as so proudly flamboyant as the GTi. Instead, its range consists of three lines: the cheap but unremarkable Savvy city car; the even more unremarkable Satria Neo supermini; and the desperately old Gen-2 hatchback, saloon and an LPG variant. There has been the promise of new product in the shape of a saloon and an MPV called the Exora, but it would seem that some dealers couldn’t wait any longer.
"Proton is set to introduce more than three brand new models this year and beginning of next,’ Smith told us. ‘I’ve already been to a confidential meeting at the HQ in Bristol and driven the new cars – the introduction of new models will really freshen the brand.
"On the question of the dismal sales figures, Smith replied: ‘We haven’t been selling cars because we’ve had a shortage of products – basically we sold our last lot of stock too quickly, so had to stop marketing. If anything, Proton and ourselves have been too successful – perhaps a bit too big for our boots in a way – and we have a very positive outlook.
"Next year, we look to sell more than 100 cars – that’s just a rough idea as we don’t know what the volume figures will be. We expect Proton cars to be selling like hotcakes early in 2014.’
Whilst DRB-Hicom is a big business assembling cars for other companies (including Merc S-class) it has achieved almost nothing in terms of designing and engineering its own cars. No doubt the Lotus purchase was intended to help on exactly this front but there's very little sign of progress. Meanwhile the Koreans are turning themselves into proper global manufacturers of cars they design and engineer themselves.
So back where we started - Lotus needs to be selling more cars.
Craikeybaby said:
Do Lotus make more money selling their own cars, or providing engineering consultancy to other manufacturers?
It's a different organisation, albeit under the same parent company. Lotus Engineering are a profitable, well respected automotive consultancy business; Lotus Cars are a loss-making car maker. Lotus can't sell as many cars as Porsche, they aren't geared up to be that big. But then Paul's bakery won't sell as many sandwiches in the UK as Pret does, but you'd have to assume it is making a profit (admittedly it might be being funded by substantial operations in France) but...
Sales volumes isn't the only barometer of being a succesful company. I'm not saying Lotus is currently as succesful as it should be, but just saying it isn't as simple as saying unless they sell Porsche type volumes they are doomed or that it in some way suggests they are inferior.
Sales volumes isn't the only barometer of being a succesful company. I'm not saying Lotus is currently as succesful as it should be, but just saying it isn't as simple as saying unless they sell Porsche type volumes they are doomed or that it in some way suggests they are inferior.
kambites said:
Craikeybaby said:
Do Lotus make more money selling their own cars, or providing engineering consultancy to other manufacturers?
It's a different organisation, albeit under the same parent company. Lotus Engineering are a profitable, well respected automotive consultancy business; Lotus Cars are a loss-making car maker. chrispmartha said:
juansolo said:
I've never used them, but the cup holders really are mightily impressive...
...and the glovebox, good lord the glove box!
The cup holders on the Cayman are the worst things about the cars, they are utterly useless, I tried to use them with a large Coffee, most of it ended up on the floor and dashboard....and the glovebox, good lord the glove box!
The glovebox has a pen holder though, thats pretty good ;-)
zebedee said:
I'm not saying Lotus is currently as succesful as it should be, but just saying it isn't as simple as saying unless they sell Porsche type volumes they are doomed or that it in some way suggests they are inferior.
As you say, it's not about selling huge numbers but,- For Lotus itself it's about the cost of building each car which gets sold, and
- For the dealers it's about the profit they make per year from selling cars.
If a dealer expected to sell 5 cars a week but only sells 1 car a month then HIS costs aren't being spread over enough cars and that knocks a big hole in his profitability.
The secret is to be selling ENOUGH cars to put a proper loading on the factory and a proper throughput at the dealers. Selling 3 cars a week in the whole of the UK (2012 and 2013) does not support a dealer network. Neither do total global sales at the current level go very far towards repaying DRB-Hicom's £100,000,000 investment in the new factory. What's needed IMO is a car which can shift in significant numbers to paying customers and that means broadening the appeal of the current range. Dani Bahar had the right idea but failed to grasp the massive/impossible cost of his reckless "five new cars" proposal.
Ozzie Osmond said:
TVR had huge enthusiasm from a small band of very dedicated owners and fans. It wasn't selling enough cars and went bust.
Lotus has huge enthusiasm from a small band of very dedicated owners and fans. It isn't selling enough cars.... No serious manufacturer can survive on selling only five cars a day. At the opposite extreme Toyota are selling nearly 30,000 cars a day. Meanwhile Lotus parent Proton is struggling, especially in UK, and clearly the current situation cannot continue. The article extracts below date from October 2013,
"The [Proton] car company, now owned by DRB-HICOM, started out in its home country of Malaysia in 1983 and produced the country’s first domestic car. By the late-1980s, imports began to arrive in the UK initially through Lada dealers, and once the 1990s dawned Proton became the fastest-selling new car brand ever with more than 22,000 cars sold in just two years.
"More products arrived throughout the 1990s and the firm even took advantage of holding the keys to Lotus, giving a sporty makeover to its insipid Mitsubishi Colt-based Satria hatchback.
"Nowadays, the firm doesn’t produce anything as so proudly flamboyant as the GTi. Instead, its range consists of three lines: the cheap but unremarkable Savvy city car; the even more unremarkable Satria Neo supermini; and the desperately old Gen-2 hatchback, saloon and an LPG variant. There has been the promise of new product in the shape of a saloon and an MPV called the Exora, but it would seem that some dealers couldn’t wait any longer.
"Proton is set to introduce more than three brand new models this year and beginning of next,’ Smith told us. ‘I’ve already been to a confidential meeting at the HQ in Bristol and driven the new cars – the introduction of new models will really freshen the brand.
"On the question of the dismal sales figures, Smith replied: ‘We haven’t been selling cars because we’ve had a shortage of products – basically we sold our last lot of stock too quickly, so had to stop marketing. If anything, Proton and ourselves have been too successful – perhaps a bit too big for our boots in a way – and we have a very positive outlook.
"Next year, we look to sell more than 100 cars – that’s just a rough idea as we don’t know what the volume figures will be. We expect Proton cars to be selling like hotcakes early in 2014.’
Whilst DRB-Hicom is a big business assembling cars for other companies (including Merc S-class) it has achieved almost nothing in terms of designing and engineering its own cars. No doubt the Lotus purchase was intended to help on exactly this front but there's very little sign of progress. Meanwhile the Koreans are turning themselves into proper global manufacturers of cars they design and engineer themselves.
So back where we started - Lotus needs to be selling more cars.
You're forgetting Lotus Engineering. The largest employer in the county working for a large number of manufacturers including Audi and Nissan to name but too. They're not short of work by any means.Lotus has huge enthusiasm from a small band of very dedicated owners and fans. It isn't selling enough cars.... No serious manufacturer can survive on selling only five cars a day. At the opposite extreme Toyota are selling nearly 30,000 cars a day. Meanwhile Lotus parent Proton is struggling, especially in UK, and clearly the current situation cannot continue. The article extracts below date from October 2013,
"The [Proton] car company, now owned by DRB-HICOM, started out in its home country of Malaysia in 1983 and produced the country’s first domestic car. By the late-1980s, imports began to arrive in the UK initially through Lada dealers, and once the 1990s dawned Proton became the fastest-selling new car brand ever with more than 22,000 cars sold in just two years.
"More products arrived throughout the 1990s and the firm even took advantage of holding the keys to Lotus, giving a sporty makeover to its insipid Mitsubishi Colt-based Satria hatchback.
"Nowadays, the firm doesn’t produce anything as so proudly flamboyant as the GTi. Instead, its range consists of three lines: the cheap but unremarkable Savvy city car; the even more unremarkable Satria Neo supermini; and the desperately old Gen-2 hatchback, saloon and an LPG variant. There has been the promise of new product in the shape of a saloon and an MPV called the Exora, but it would seem that some dealers couldn’t wait any longer.
"Proton is set to introduce more than three brand new models this year and beginning of next,’ Smith told us. ‘I’ve already been to a confidential meeting at the HQ in Bristol and driven the new cars – the introduction of new models will really freshen the brand.
"On the question of the dismal sales figures, Smith replied: ‘We haven’t been selling cars because we’ve had a shortage of products – basically we sold our last lot of stock too quickly, so had to stop marketing. If anything, Proton and ourselves have been too successful – perhaps a bit too big for our boots in a way – and we have a very positive outlook.
"Next year, we look to sell more than 100 cars – that’s just a rough idea as we don’t know what the volume figures will be. We expect Proton cars to be selling like hotcakes early in 2014.’
Whilst DRB-Hicom is a big business assembling cars for other companies (including Merc S-class) it has achieved almost nothing in terms of designing and engineering its own cars. No doubt the Lotus purchase was intended to help on exactly this front but there's very little sign of progress. Meanwhile the Koreans are turning themselves into proper global manufacturers of cars they design and engineer themselves.
So back where we started - Lotus needs to be selling more cars.
I'd have an Evora over a Cayman. I haven't driven either but everytime I see a Cayman it's just another car to me. Everytime I see an Evora I think "Gosh I'd love one of those, even if it was just to look at". It provokes a very stong emotive response in me for some reason as do a lot of Lotus'/Lotuses/Lotii and the only Porsche that's done the same thing was the Singer 911.
I called out Autocars ridiculous claim about the Elise's ride quality. Remember I bought 5 of them. It's not like I don't like them, far from it.
I maintain not a fun car to drive long distance, especially on the motorway.
There are then people on this thread claiming to have driven thousands of miles as a daily and explaining they use ear plugs!!!WTF
Listen, you could drive an Elise daily on the motorway. But it's NOT fun. Wearing ear plugs to drive your daily is not normal....
Back to the Evora. Nice that it has some passionate owners here but there aren't enough of them. I want Lotus to do well. Ideally I'd like them to make a car I want to buy. To do that they need more money which means shifting more cars.
I think Porsche have got the market for £40k plus cars sewn up. I'd like Lotus to consider targeting the £30-35k sports car sector. As I said earlier my 1998 Elise was as quick as a Boxster whilst being £10k cheaper. That's forgotten years down the line. Don't look to compete with Caymans on price, undercut them and thus sell more.
What have ear plugs got to do with ride quality?
NVH in the Elise is terrible, that's why you need ear-plugs. It's certainly not a good motorway car overall (I don't like driving mine on the motorway at all). The ride, however, is very good (for a sports car, obviously it's not an S-class).
NVH in the Elise is terrible, that's why you need ear-plugs. It's certainly not a good motorway car overall (I don't like driving mine on the motorway at all). The ride, however, is very good (for a sports car, obviously it's not an S-class).
Edited by kambites on Friday 25th April 21:53
highway said:
As I said earlier my 1998 Elise was as quick as a Boxster whilst being £10k cheaper. That's forgotten years down the line. Don't look to compete with Caymans on price, undercut them and thus sell more.
Unlike the current Elise which is... as quick as a Boxster (S) and about 10k cheaper? All being well in six days I will be driving my new Evora S.
Its been a long wait and I am really,really excited. Ooh! I could crush a grape.
In my mind the only opinions that matter are from the people who have used their own cash( or credit) to purchase a car.Regarding the Evora they are mainly positive. If there was a long line of disgruntled owners who's cars were bursting into flames and they could not use them , wellthat would influence my thinking.
Its been a long wait and I am really,really excited. Ooh! I could crush a grape.
In my mind the only opinions that matter are from the people who have used their own cash( or credit) to purchase a car.Regarding the Evora they are mainly positive. If there was a long line of disgruntled owners who's cars were bursting into flames and they could not use them , wellthat would influence my thinking.
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