Brand New Citroen DS5 - plenty of faults and bad paint job
Discussion
TooMany2cvs said:
Look, you've got a case for the bumper, definitely. You may very well have a case for the steering. But don't embarrass yourself by embroidering all this rubbish to support your desired outcome.
You explicitly stated that the _wording_ of the law said something specific, which it clearly doesn't.
You're now saying that the home page on the CAB's website says something. Their home page doesn't even mention cars, let alone new ones - and searching their site for the words "new car" doesn't come back with anything even remotely relevant in a quick scan of the 74 results. Searching their site for "new car fault free" comes back with three results - small claims, bedroom tax and disabled volunteers.
The Financial Ombudsman doesn't even deal with car purchases, apart from the finance products you might take on them.
If there are legal precedents that support your case, great. Name a few. But I'll bet there's just as many which give the dealer right to repair in cases like this.
In the meantime, we could just remember those sections of SOGA that I quoted above - the ones that clearly show that you certainly DO have the right to get the car repaired, but you're very premature in trying to reject it, and that the supplier has the right to repair where rejection would be disproportionate. Like a mis-matched front bumper and a minor suspension/steering alignment issue on a new car.
You have a case. Nobody's saying otherwise. But calm down a bit, think rather than rant, and you might actually start to get somewhere in getting some goodwill and help in resolving it from both the dealer and CitUK. At least give them more than one full working day between noticing the bumper mis-match and starting threads such as this. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, remember?
If t'were me, especially given the distance involved - I'd just vow not to ever darken the supplying dealer's door again, and get your local dealer onside with resolving what's clearly a couple of easily and quickly fixable problems. Re-reading your original post, I notice that you've actually been talking to them, that they agree that there's a steering issue - but, rather than let them resolve it, you immediately went back to shouting to the original supplying dealer, who you'd already started to try to reject the car through. And, less than a week later, you're shouting all over t'web about it.
If this was your customer, would you regard these as the actions of a reasonable man trying to get the problem _solved_?
Look, stop trying to be a bulletin board lawyer, as you're talking nonsense.You explicitly stated that the _wording_ of the law said something specific, which it clearly doesn't.
You're now saying that the home page on the CAB's website says something. Their home page doesn't even mention cars, let alone new ones - and searching their site for the words "new car" doesn't come back with anything even remotely relevant in a quick scan of the 74 results. Searching their site for "new car fault free" comes back with three results - small claims, bedroom tax and disabled volunteers.
The Financial Ombudsman doesn't even deal with car purchases, apart from the finance products you might take on them.
If there are legal precedents that support your case, great. Name a few. But I'll bet there's just as many which give the dealer right to repair in cases like this.
In the meantime, we could just remember those sections of SOGA that I quoted above - the ones that clearly show that you certainly DO have the right to get the car repaired, but you're very premature in trying to reject it, and that the supplier has the right to repair where rejection would be disproportionate. Like a mis-matched front bumper and a minor suspension/steering alignment issue on a new car.
You have a case. Nobody's saying otherwise. But calm down a bit, think rather than rant, and you might actually start to get somewhere in getting some goodwill and help in resolving it from both the dealer and CitUK. At least give them more than one full working day between noticing the bumper mis-match and starting threads such as this. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, remember?
If t'were me, especially given the distance involved - I'd just vow not to ever darken the supplying dealer's door again, and get your local dealer onside with resolving what's clearly a couple of easily and quickly fixable problems. Re-reading your original post, I notice that you've actually been talking to them, that they agree that there's a steering issue - but, rather than let them resolve it, you immediately went back to shouting to the original supplying dealer, who you'd already started to try to reject the car through. And, less than a week later, you're shouting all over t'web about it.
If this was your customer, would you regard these as the actions of a reasonable man trying to get the problem _solved_?
Legal precedents? Ok, how about Bernstein Vs Palmerston Motors 1987 or Bowes Vs J Richardson and Son 2004.
I'm guessing you work in the trade, if so, then show us how the faults that have been seen could possibly be caused by something other than a front end smash? Or that were you the customer, you'd be happy with the situation?
The customer isn't always right, but in this case, he most certainly is.
A terrible situation for the OP but what a great thread.
It's heartening to see so much help and advice being offered especially those who are taking the trouble to post on fb and twitter. Well done chaps.
I'm sure citroen will be shamed into doing the right thing eventually albeit after trying their best to initially fob the customer off.
I've been a passenger in some of these new citroens and they really are comfortable and smooth cars to waft in however this one is clearly a lemon.
It's heartening to see so much help and advice being offered especially those who are taking the trouble to post on fb and twitter. Well done chaps.
I'm sure citroen will be shamed into doing the right thing eventually albeit after trying their best to initially fob the customer off.
I've been a passenger in some of these new citroens and they really are comfortable and smooth cars to waft in however this one is clearly a lemon.
Edited by BlackLabel on Thursday 17th April 20:35
Edited by BlackLabel on Thursday 17th April 20:37
TooMany2cvs said:
Look, you've got a case for the bumper, definitely. You may very well have a case for the steering. But don't embarrass yourself by embroidering all this rubbish to support your desired outcome.
You explicitly stated that the _wording_ of the law said something specific, which it clearly doesn't.
You're now saying that the home page on the CAB's website says something. Their home page doesn't even mention cars, let alone new ones - and searching their site for the words "new car" doesn't come back with anything even remotely relevant in a quick scan of the 74 results. Searching their site for "new car fault free" comes back with three results - small claims, bedroom tax and disabled volunteers.
The Financial Ombudsman doesn't even deal with car purchases, apart from the finance products you might take on them.
If there are legal precedents that support your case, great. Name a few. But I'll bet there's just as many which give the dealer right to repair in cases like this.
In the meantime, we could just remember those sections of SOGA that I quoted above - the ones that clearly show that you certainly DO have the right to get the car repaired, but you're very premature in trying to reject it, and that the supplier has the right to repair where rejection would be disproportionate. Like a mis-matched front bumper and a minor suspension/steering alignment issue on a new car.
You have a case. Nobody's saying otherwise. But calm down a bit, think rather than rant, and you might actually start to get somewhere in getting some goodwill and help in resolving it from both the dealer and CitUK. At least give them more than one full working day between noticing the bumper mis-match and starting threads such as this. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, remember?
If t'were me, especially given the distance involved - I'd just vow not to ever darken the supplying dealer's door again, and get your local dealer onside with resolving what's clearly a couple of easily and quickly fixable problems. Re-reading your original post, I notice that you've actually been talking to them, that they agree that there's a steering issue - but, rather than let them resolve it, you immediately went back to shouting to the original supplying dealer, who you'd already started to try to reject the car through. And, less than a week later, you're shouting all over t'web about it.
If this was your customer, would you regard these as the actions of a reasonable man trying to get the problem _solved_?
OK You explicitly stated that the _wording_ of the law said something specific, which it clearly doesn't.
You're now saying that the home page on the CAB's website says something. Their home page doesn't even mention cars, let alone new ones - and searching their site for the words "new car" doesn't come back with anything even remotely relevant in a quick scan of the 74 results. Searching their site for "new car fault free" comes back with three results - small claims, bedroom tax and disabled volunteers.
The Financial Ombudsman doesn't even deal with car purchases, apart from the finance products you might take on them.
If there are legal precedents that support your case, great. Name a few. But I'll bet there's just as many which give the dealer right to repair in cases like this.
In the meantime, we could just remember those sections of SOGA that I quoted above - the ones that clearly show that you certainly DO have the right to get the car repaired, but you're very premature in trying to reject it, and that the supplier has the right to repair where rejection would be disproportionate. Like a mis-matched front bumper and a minor suspension/steering alignment issue on a new car.
You have a case. Nobody's saying otherwise. But calm down a bit, think rather than rant, and you might actually start to get somewhere in getting some goodwill and help in resolving it from both the dealer and CitUK. At least give them more than one full working day between noticing the bumper mis-match and starting threads such as this. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, remember?
If t'were me, especially given the distance involved - I'd just vow not to ever darken the supplying dealer's door again, and get your local dealer onside with resolving what's clearly a couple of easily and quickly fixable problems. Re-reading your original post, I notice that you've actually been talking to them, that they agree that there's a steering issue - but, rather than let them resolve it, you immediately went back to shouting to the original supplying dealer, who you'd already started to try to reject the car through. And, less than a week later, you're shouting all over t'web about it.
If this was your customer, would you regard these as the actions of a reasonable man trying to get the problem _solved_?
First I'm not shouting I'm just exposing my situation. I'm clearly the underdog in this story. I'm just trying to equalize the balance of power.
Second please follow this link:
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_ni/...
...and you will find this:
"Be of satisfactory appearance and finish
You can expect a new item to have a good appearance and finish. If it doesn't, it's probably not of satisfactory quality, even if it has no other faults. For example, a new car with scratches or a shop-soiled dress aren't of satisfactory quality."
Now follow this link:
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications...
... and you will find this:
"new and used vehicles
Consumers are entitled to expect a brand-new vehicle to be free from even minor faults, including cosmetic ones"
I purchased the car through a Conditional Sale agreement, and so Financial Ombudsman can have a say on this.
If you go here http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/consumer-rights/ you will find plenty of suitable legal precedents.
I don't rant about it I'm just telling like it is - I'm presenting facts. Why are you so virulent?
I took my car to another Citroen Dealer to be inspected and although they did find something strange during the initial test drive, their final report was that my car is in perfect working order. This was either because of their incompetence, either part of a cover up. They never proposed me to let the car be repaired by them. If it was so easy to fix I'm sure that it would of been fixed by now.I don't know how you come to your conclusion that I didn't let them to fix my car - complete false.
Thank you and please calm a little, I'm not your enemy here, not at all. Even if you do not agree with me, by posting on this thread you are still doing me a favour by keeping this story relevant. So , one more time Thank You.
EDIT:
The following I find it to be very interesting and helpful in clarifying our litle stand off
The case law Rogers v Parish (Scarborough) Ltd; CA 1987 is of relevance to this situation:
Mustill LJ said: “This being so, I think it legitimate to look at the whole issue afresh with direct reference to the words of section 14(6). Starting with the purpose for which ‘goods of that kind’ are commonly bought, one would include in respect of any passenger vehicle not merely the buyer’s purpose of driving the car from one place to another but of doing so with the appropriate degree of comfort, ease of handling and reliability and, one might add, of pride in the vehicle’s outward and interior appearance.”
Thank you and goodnight
Edited by mbrad26 on Thursday 17th April 21:09
IforB said:
Legal precedents? Ok, how about Bernstein Vs Palmerston Motors 1987 or Bowes Vs J Richardson and Son 2004.
Bernstein eventually gave the supplier three attempts to fix. The OP hasn't given it one. It could be argued that Clegg vs Olle Andersson 2003 overturns that, saying rejection doesn't have to be "reasonable", but that was relating to a fundamental difference between design and spec of a bespoke product. Somewhat different to an easily rectifiable fault on delivery.Bowes was related to multiple serious issues over seven months and multiple failed attempts to fix, and was centred on whether the rejection was time-barred or not.
IforB said:
I'm guessing you work in the trade, if so, then show us how the faults that have been seen could possibly be caused by something other than a front end smash?
Your guessing skills are clearly on a par with your reading skills, since the post you replied to included me saying - and not for the first time - that somebody's clearly bent it. So, for the avoidance of doubt - no, I do not work in the motor trade. Never have, probably never will. Oh, and - something makes me think that my legal qualifications are exactly the same as your own. But I can read and comprehend.IforB said:
The customer isn't always right, but in this case, he most certainly is.
Again, your comprehension skills are failing you, since I've repeatedly said there's a definite problem. Hell, his local dealer has driven the car and agreed it's not right. But he's not letting them even attempt to fix it.
TooMany2cvs said:
KTF said:
Citroen UK have no record of the car having been damaged in transit.
How has it 'obviously' had this happen to it without comparing the panel fit, checking bolt heads, etc. to other examples?
Do you really think that the factory would release a car with a front bumper fitting that badly, and painted in a different shade of grey to the rest of the car?How has it 'obviously' had this happen to it without comparing the panel fit, checking bolt heads, etc. to other examples?
Do you think it'd get through the import and distribution centres like that?
Somebody at the dealer's nudged it, maybe damaging the front suspension as well as the bumper - and they've not told CitUK. They've quite possibly not even told their boss. They've probably got a mate in the bodyshop to fix it on the quiet, then hoped they could punt it out without anybody noticing. Gawd knows why or how. They must have been daft to even think it'd work. Mind you, it took the OP a fortnight to notice it...
As you also point out, it took the OP 2 weeks to notice compared to a quick walkaround they do at the various stages along the way.
Do you really think if a mechanic pranged it so badly that it needed a front end rebuilt that he would be able to recover it to the dealership, get it repaired by a 'mate in the bodyshop' and noone would ask who is paying for all the materials or to send the bill to at the end of it?
I think the OP is right to ask that the colour is matched better but to say that its been in a front end smash based on photos and not seeing it in the metal is stretching it a bit.
Citroen UK and/or in independent assessment should be able to tell if it has been in an accident or if there is some other mechanical issue that is causing it to pull to the left.
BE57 TOY said:
OP is well within his rights to reject the car. If he wanted a resprayed / repaired / less than perfect car he would have bought a used one.
So every single new car that's had any rectification work prior to delivery is unsaleable as new?Even though in this thread - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... - somebody who used to drive transporters for BMW reckons _over half_ of all new cars have had some paint?
TooMany2cvs said:
So every single new car that's had any rectification work prior to delivery is unsaleable as new?
Even though in this thread - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... - somebody who used to drive transporters for BMW reckons _over half_ of all new cars have had some paint?
Can I ask what is the point in your rantings no this thread ?Even though in this thread - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... - somebody who used to drive transporters for BMW reckons _over half_ of all new cars have had some paint?
You agree the car is substandard, so whats the point in quibbling over what the OP should/shouldn't do ?
You want them to repair the car, yet the dealer has already had the car and has proven unable to fix it. Do you want the OP do continue to ask them to mend the car, going round in circles with no resolution ?
IMHO the OP is perfectly entitled to reject the vehicle and its a horrendously bad show from the dealer & manufacturer for not resolving the situation.
OP contact your finance company, explain that you believe you have been sold a dangerous and seriously defective vehicle. (I don't think you have)
The area representative for finance co will arrange to meet you and given this finance company was provided by the selling dealer, they are most likely financing the stock for that dealer.
Arrange a meeting with fin co, supplying dealer and yourself. The bumper mismatch is plain to see and will be resolved either with a new one from production line or repainted. Most likely the supplying dealer under this pressure will wash his hands of the deal and you will hand car back.
If you follow this, there is no way the finance company will not inspect vehicle, as and lets get a lawyer in, consumer credit acts and so on, mean you face additional consumer protection from this finance agreement.
The area representative for finance co will arrange to meet you and given this finance company was provided by the selling dealer, they are most likely financing the stock for that dealer.
Arrange a meeting with fin co, supplying dealer and yourself. The bumper mismatch is plain to see and will be resolved either with a new one from production line or repainted. Most likely the supplying dealer under this pressure will wash his hands of the deal and you will hand car back.
If you follow this, there is no way the finance company will not inspect vehicle, as and lets get a lawyer in, consumer credit acts and so on, mean you face additional consumer protection from this finance agreement.
nct001 said:
OP contact your finance company, explain that you believe you have been sold a dangerous and seriously defective vehicle. (I don't think you have)
The area representative for finance co will arrange to meet you and given this finance company was provided by the selling dealer, they are most likely financing the stock for that dealer.
Arrange a meeting with fin co, supplying dealer and yourself. The bumper mismatch is plain to see and will be resolved either with a new one from production line or repainted. Most likely the supplying dealer under this pressure will wash his hands of the deal and you will hand car back.
If you follow this, there is no way the finance company will not inspect vehicle, as and lets get a lawyer in, consumer credit acts and so on, mean you face additional consumer protection from this finance agreement.
HiThe area representative for finance co will arrange to meet you and given this finance company was provided by the selling dealer, they are most likely financing the stock for that dealer.
Arrange a meeting with fin co, supplying dealer and yourself. The bumper mismatch is plain to see and will be resolved either with a new one from production line or repainted. Most likely the supplying dealer under this pressure will wash his hands of the deal and you will hand car back.
If you follow this, there is no way the finance company will not inspect vehicle, as and lets get a lawyer in, consumer credit acts and so on, mean you face additional consumer protection from this finance agreement.
Thanks for advice. The FC has been notified about my problems from day one. Although, initially they appeared to be helpful, in the end they declined any responsibility. I've been told that everything is between me and the dealer.
mbrad26 said:
Hi
Thanks for advice. The FC has been notified about my problems from day one. Although, initially they appeared to be helpful, in the end they declined any responsibility. I've been told that everything is between me and the dealer.
I can't help thinking that the dealer now has the upper hand in this case.Thanks for advice. The FC has been notified about my problems from day one. Although, initially they appeared to be helpful, in the end they declined any responsibility. I've been told that everything is between me and the dealer.
Much as I sympathise with the OP, and feel he should have some redress (be it repair, a new car, a partial refund or whatever), look at where we are:-
The dealer has the DS5 car and keys, and is supposedly preparing a bill for storage.
The dealer could refuse to hand the keys back until the storage bill is settled.
The dealer is playing a waiting game, and can afford to. There is no incentive apart from bad publicity to do anything, and so far the publicity angle doesn't seem to have bothered them.
The OP doesn't have a car and is presumably paying for his transport by some other means.
The OP is also paying for the DS5 depreciation (time based even if not mileage based), and Insurance, and Road Tax, and finance/interest repayments.
In time the car will need re-taxing (1/3/15) and re-insuring, and a service. if the service isn't done then the warranty will be voided.
The only way I can see of breaking this stalemate / deadlock is by the OP issuing a lawyer's letter to the dealer. The dealer may respond similarly, and soon the lawyers' fees will rack up to a disproportionate amount.
In my experience of similar situations, if there is no compromise agreement then only a court can resolve it, i.e. should the storage be paid? and / or should the car be repaired? or replaced? - or not?.
Time is not on the OP's side any more. The dealer's stance / bluff / stalemate / position (depending on your point of view) has gone on a month already, and shows no signs of weakening.
What do you think?
TooMany2cvs said:
So every single new car that's had any rectification work prior to delivery is unsaleable as new?
Even though in this thread - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... - somebody who used to drive transporters for BMW reckons _over half_ of all new cars have had some paint?
This one hasn't been rectified though. Even though in this thread - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... - somebody who used to drive transporters for BMW reckons _over half_ of all new cars have had some paint?
edo said:
See previous post from op. Citroen have stopped the storage fees.
ok, no I didn't see that bit, but even so there is still no incentive for the dealer to do anything, whereas the OP is stuck. The dealer (and Citroen UK) could just keep saying no, and what is the OP going to do?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff