Transferrring/Retaining a number plate on sold car

[saaby93]

r11co said:

saaby93 said:

The plate stays with the car at point of transfer.

Correct. Keepership transfer. Nothing I said suggested otherwise.

saaby93 said:

If there's no signed receipt between the parties saying otherwise thats the default position. If you're a seller wanting to keep the plate it can either be transferred before ( ideal) - and it seems from above that can now be done online the instant before
or the new keeper can transfer it back to the old keeper just afterwards using the V317 as above.

Still comes down to the whole difference between ownership and keepership. If the money changes hands with no written agreement about the plate and retention is carried out before the change of keeper is processed then the plate goes to the existing keeper (or a grantee if they so wish).

Two ways this could happen:

1. Seller does retention online (which the seller could allege was done the day of the sale but before it was concluded) then waits for new V5C with original reg to come through post and processes change of keeper a few days later.

2. Seller posts V5C with reg they want to keep to DVLA along with V317 retention request. DVLA will follow procedure that retention should be processed first with same net effect as above.

Assuming that the initial point is true that the plate transfers with the car
If seller does [1] surely the wrong V5C ends up getting signed
If seller does [2] that shouldnt work
If the V317 is filled in by the seller retaining the plate that would have to affect the V5C which would have to come back so the the buyer buys the car with the correct reg. If its done on line the buyer taxes the car with the non retained reg so theyd know
The use of the V317 quoted earlier is done after the sale when the buyer transfers the plate to the seller

[peza220]

When i was buying the car the seller asked do you want the plate with the car and i said yes i would have the plate with the car. It wasnt untill the next day she asked if she could have them back which i said no. She continued after the sale of the car not before so she was fully aware of what she was doing to remove the plate off the car after the sale was agreed. She then text me three weeks later saying " my ex has put the plate on retension so im taking the plate of the car" but the car what i bought was not in her exs name but in her name.

[r11co]

saaby93 said:

Assuming that the initial point is true that the plate transfers with the car
If seller does [1] surely the wrong V5C ends up getting signed
If seller does [2] that shouldnt work
If the V317 is filled in by the seller retaining the plate that would have to affect the V5C which would have to come back so the the buyer buys the car with the correct reg. If its done on line the buyer taxes the car with the non retained reg so theyd know
The use of the V317 quoted earlier is done after the sale when the buyer transfers the plate to the seller.

I'll say it once again - ownership and keepership are two separate things - transfer of one happens when money changes hands and transfer of the other happens when the DVLA process the details. They are not simultaneous, and reg mark acquisition is part of the keepership process.

Grasp that and you will understand what I am saying.

Also, how may times does it have to be mentioned that new keeper signature is not a requirement for keepership transfer?

peza220 said:

She then text me three weeks later saying " my ex has put the plate on retension so im taking the plate of the car" but the car what i bought was not in her exs name but in her name.

Safe to assume that what she meant was that her ex. did the online thing or form filling on her behalf.

Here's how it is going to work - wait for the V5C in your name to arrive from the DVLA. If it has the cherished mark on it then it is yours. If it doesn't then give up.

You might want to try legal recourse on the basis of the texts but this is going to be a long road and will require you establishing the value of the plate and that you are out-of-pocket to that amount (the cost of legal representation for this will probably cancel that amount out several times).

The DVLA will not entertain any protestations or allegations of agreements from you and there is no legal right to the plate if their processes were followed by the seller.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 4th January 12:35

[Durzel]

It sounds on the face of it like you would've bought the car, and indeed did buy it, regardless of the plate and that it was a nice-to-have. Therefore what's the big deal now? You've lost something that wasn't material to your purchase in the first place. Life's too short.

[peza220]

No she was saying her ex owned the plate what was on her car and the v5 was in ber name

[r11co]

peza220 said:

No she was saying her ex owned the plate what was on her car and the v5 was in ber name

Irrelevant. He wouldn't have been able to apply for retention in his name if the V5 was in hers. What she could have done is nominate him as grantee on a V317 in which case she's not bulstting you and she's put the plate back in his name. All possible and above-board.

As I said though - all moot too. When (if) the V5 comes in (probably delayed now because you gummed the system putting in a V62 form) you will know the end-game.

Out of your hands now either way.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 4th January 12:41

[V8LM]

r11co said:

saaby93 said:

Assuming that the initial point is true that the plate transfers with the car
If seller does [1] surely the wrong V5C ends up getting signed
If seller does [2] that shouldnt work
If the V317 is filled in by the seller retaining the plate that would have to affect the V5C which would have to come back so the the buyer buys the car with the correct reg. If its done on line the buyer taxes the car with the non retained reg so theyd know
The use of the V317 quoted earlier is done after the sale when the buyer transfers the plate to the seller.

I'll say it once again - ownership and keepership are two separate things - transfer of one happens when money changes hands and transfer of the other happens when the DVLA process the details. They are not simultaneous, and reg mark acquisition is part of the keepership process.

Grasp that and you will understand what I am saying.

Also, how may times does it have to be mentioned that new keeper signature is not a requirement for keepership transfer?

As the OP managed to tax the car then the DVLA would have known its 'keepership' had been transferred. As the OP managed to tax the car with the private reg then the transfer of the reg had not been done so [2] didn't happen.

[saaby93]

r11co said:

saaby93 said:

Assuming that the initial point is true that the plate transfers with the car
If seller does [1] surely the wrong V5C ends up getting signed
If seller does [2] that shouldnt work
If the V317 is filled in by the seller retaining the plate that would have to affect the V5C which would have to come back so the the buyer buys the car with the correct reg. If its done on line the buyer taxes the car with the non retained reg so theyd know
The use of the V317 quoted earlier is done after the sale when the buyer transfers the plate to the seller.

I'll say it once again - ownership and keepership are two separate things - transfer of one happens when money changes hands and transfer of the other happens when the DVLA process the details. They are not simultaneous, and reg mark acquisition is part of the keepership process.

Grasp that and you will understand what I am saying.

Also, how may times does it have to be mentioned that new keeper signature is not a requirement for keepership transfer?

It sounds like youve had as many discussions with DVLA as me
Agreed ownership is not the same as keepership
and at the point of changing ownership the assumption is that on payment of cash/funds for the vehicle, if nothing else is in place, the reg transfers with the car -its assigned to a car unless its on retention somewhere
DVLA systems are set up the same way when the change of keepership forms come through.
They seemed pretty rigid about plate changes and it was useful when the V317 was allowed to go back with the V5C to transfer the plate back to the seller to avoid a new V5C having to come through first
It's not clear the online procedures are allowing something different to happen if the OP has managed to tax the car

[r11co]

saaby93 said:

Agreed ownership is not the same as keepership
and at the point of changing ownership the assumption is that on payment of cash/funds for the vehicle, if nothing else is in place, the reg transfers with the car -its assigned to a car unless its on retention somewhere.

Your assumption is incorrect. The registration does not transfer with ownership. If that means there is a window of opportunity to transfer the plate off after ownership has transferred but keepership hasn't then so be it, as acknowledged by.....

saaby93 said:

it was useful when the V317 was allowed to go back with the V5C to transfer the plate back to the seller to avoid a new V5C having to come through first

The above process means that ownership could have transferred before the paperwork detailing keeper transfer was received by the DVLA. They will process retention first then keepership next, thus disproving your assumption.

The DVLA even specifically mentions on their website that no money needs to change hands for keepership to transfer as the two operations are not linked in any way.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 4th January 12:56

[peza220]

Ok so i just rang the dvla and informed them of the situation, they told me that she is the registered keeper of the vehicle and plate atm but because i have sent a valid v62 and the green slip in and its being processed, when it is complete i will be the owner of the car and the number plate. And also that if they do get a conflicting retension for the plate it would not generate a new v5 and that the plate would stay with the car untill issue has been resolved.

[saaby93]

r11co said:

saaby93 said:

Agreed ownership is not the same as keepership
and at the point of changing ownership the assumption is that on payment of cash/funds for the vehicle, if nothing else is in place, the reg transfers with the car -its assigned to a car unless its on retention somewhere.

Your assumption is incorrect. The registration does not transfer with ownership. If that means there is a window of opportunity to transfer the plate off after ownership has transferred but keepership hasn't then so be it, as acknowledged by.....

I dont know what involvement youve had with this process and agreed there are pitfalls
Here is the document
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
from here
https://www.gov.uk/personalised-vehicle-registrati...
It says

doc said:

6. What happens if you want to sell your vehicle which has a personalised registration number?
Do not sell or get rid of your vehicle before you move the personalised registration number to your new vehicle (transfer it) or put it on hold (retain it).
If you get rid of your vehicle before we give you a new V5C with a replacement registration number, the personalised registration number will pass to the new registered keeper.
We either, identify (assign) a vehicle with a registration number, or hold it for the registered keeper, it is not “personal property”. The registered keeper is the only person who has the right to apply to transfer or retain the registration number.
So remember, when you want to sell your vehicle displaying a personalised plate “if you don’t move it… you’ll lose it”.

As is typical with DVLA it doesnt explain the situation where you buy a car and hope to keep the plate that you thinkj comes with it

Now whats happened here is both parties have signed the V5C to change keeper
In changing keeper the plate moves to the new registered keeper, unless the original keeper does a V317 transfer first
The question is does the registered keeper change at the point of signing the form, or at the point DVLA enter it on their system?

[r11co]

V8LM said:

As the OP managed to tax the car then the DVLA would have known its 'keepership' had been transferred.

Nope. Taxing a car can be done by anyone at any time using the V5 reference. This doesn't trigger the keepership change but it will prepare the DVLA to expect the details to follow.

Last car I sold the new owner taxed it online using his smartphone while I still had the V5 in my hands (which I didn't post till the following day).

You can re-tax your own car early even if you were so inclined. Just means you will get a refund of any outstanding VED and start again with a new 6/12 month period if that is what you paid for.

[r11co]

saaby93 said:

The question is does the registered keeper change at the point of signing the form, or at the point DVLA enter it on their system?

The latter.

No dubiety about it - the fact that it can be done online without signatures establishes that.

[saaby93]

r11co said:

The latter.

No dubiety about it - the fact that it can be done online without signatures establishes that.

They are specific with this though

dvla said:

If you get rid of your vehicle before we give you a new V5C with a replacement registration number, the personalised registration number will pass to the new registered keeper

i.e.even though you apply on line to transfer the reg, if you change keeper before a new V5C is issued you lose the plate
or so that doc would have you believe -in which case the OP is in the clear
But yes DVLA can seem to have right hands and left hands

[V8LM]

r11co said:

V8LM said:

As the OP managed to tax the car then the DVLA would have known its 'keepership' had been transferred.

Nope. Taxing a car can be done by anyone at any time using the V5 reference. This doesn't trigger the keepership change but it will prepare the DVLA to expect the details to follow.

Last car I sold the new owner taxed it online using his smartphone while I still had the V5 in my hands (which I didn't post till the following day).

You can re-tax your own car early even if you were so inclined. Just means you will get a refund of any outstanding VED and start again with a new 6/12 month period if that is what you paid for.

So you can. Thanks!

[r11co]

saaby93 said:

i.e.even though you apply on line to transfer the reg, if you change keeper before a new V5C is issued you lose the plate
or so that doc would have you believe -in which case the OP is in the clear
But yes DVLA can seem to have right hands and left hands

The problem is the use of the wording 'get rid of' - presumably done because most people cannot grasp the difference between keepership and ownership.

The point is that the seller doesn't change keepership - the DVLA does and that triggers the new V5, so it is impossible for keepership to change before a new V5 is issued because they are simultaneous.

Getting it through the post is another matter, but once the new V5 reference is generated any old ones (in the possession of buyer/seller/whatever) are null and void.

[saaby93]

r11co said:

saaby93 said:

i.e.even though you apply on line to transfer the reg, if you change keeper before a new V5C is issued you lose the plate
or so that doc would have you believe -in which case the OP is in the clear
But yes DVLA can seem to have right hands and left hands

The problem is the use of the wording 'get rid of' - presumably done because most people cannot grasp the difference between keepership and ownership.

The point is that the seller doesn't change keepership - the DVLA does and that triggers the new V5, so it is impossible for keepership to change before a new V5 is issued because they are simultaneous.

Getting it through the post is another matter, but once the new V5 reference is generated any old ones (in the possession of buyer/seller/whatever) are null and void.

I meant 'if you change keeper before a new V5C is issued due to plate change, you lose the plate
Again it all depends on timing, what DVLA means and what the law says ( not always the same)

If doing things on line means you can sign a set of docs, then the seller online assigns the plate before doing the new keeper it not only leaves a hole in the system but youve signed a different V5C to the one thats issued due to the plate change

[r11co]

saaby93 said:

I meant 'if you change keeper before a new V5C is issued due to plate change, you lose the plate

No you wouldn't, because a change of plate triggers a new V5C reference and document with a different reg number on it, and that is then the number that would appear on the new keeper's V5C if a subsequent keepership change is received. The retention and replacement of number on the car is instantaneous.

It would only happen if you sent the V5C and it was processed before you realised too late what you had done and attempted to put it on retention after. This may have happened in the OPs case and it may not.

As I said - we will only know when he gets his copy of the V5C from the DVLA. If the seller didn't file the keepership change (and the DVLA processed it) before the retention request then the OP doesn't get the plate and has no claim on it. The tax etc. is irrelevant and a side issue.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 4th January 15:23

[saaby93]

r11co said:

saaby93 said:

I meant 'if you change keeper before a new V5C is issued due to plate change, you lose the plate

No you wouldn't, because a change of plate triggers a new V5C reference and document with a different reg number on it, and that is then the number that would appear on the new keeper's V5C if a subsequent keepership change is received. The retention and replacement of number on the car is instantaneous.

I think youre deliberately misreading what I'm saying now
It depends who youre referring to as you - the seller or the buyer and which plate youre talking about needing to keep or move on