RE: Audi S3 revelation: PH Blog

[Msportman]

Spoke to APR LLC and Revo re S3 and Golf R.....both tuning houses confirm they are close to releasing a remap to 350-360 on Stage 1!
Great result if this is the case for this platform for Golf and Audi with this better Haldex arrangement. Certainly will be very potent and a great all round package.

Wait for the big brake kits and Bilstein KW upgraded suspension packages for the trackday enthusiasts.

I'm thinking of a new S3 or R manual and selling my Edition 30.

Edited by Msportman on Thursday 10th April 21:32

[cerb4.5lee]

mattberkshire said:

OK. I'd agree to disagree. Have driven hydraulic Cayman R, Boxster S, 911 C2 amongst others and electric Boxster S, Cayman, 911 C2 and 911 Turbo and honestly the steering in the newer cars is no worse. My experience tells me something Public Enemy said - Don't believe the hype

I think its just what you are used to I loved the steering in my E92 M3/Z4M/E90 330i but then I drove our Audi TTS and I had a brand new 320d as a loan car and I hated the electric steering on both massively but like with anything you get used to it so you just adapt to it.

What`s best will always be a matter of opinion...but like the Auto/Twin Clutch debate my preference will always be for the old days hence my love of hydraulic steering and the manual gearbox but that's clearly not the future...I clearly need to go with the times.

[Maldini35]

bodhi said:

Two things come to mind.

1) Subtle? It's got 4 massive tailpipes sticking out the back! A bit Max Power on a hot hatch if you ask me, especially connected up to a turbo'd 4 banger.

2) The Evo review quoted above seems to have it down as fast but dull. So a bit like every other hot Audi then, only this one is getting praise as it's not as terrible as the RS3?

1) Yes it has 4 tailpipes but it's still very subtle for a 300bhp hatch. From every angle bar the rear end you really struggle to tell it apart from the cooking versions. Have a look at some pics....

2) Evo & Chris obviously disagree. You seem very keen to agree with the EVO team but without trying it yourself how can you be so sure?
Are you a fan of the RSQ3 as the EVO boys mysteriously liked that one. Or have you made up your mind about Audi and simply pick and choose to believe whichever review gives the Audi a kicking?

I drove an S3 recently and was similarly surprised by it. It's got a great engine note, is so eager to rev and coped with the crummy roads round my way amazingly well. I've not driven a Golf R yet which seems to be getting rave reviews but I say the S3 is definitely worth a go.

[Debaser]

mattberkshire said:

Electric power steering being a poor substitute is a myth perpetuated by those who think about it far too much. Current Boxster, Cayman, 911 are all epic steerers. BRZ - best cheapish drivers car - has electric steering. Go figure

Finally, someone on PH who knows what they are talking about.

Do you know why the Z4M had hydraulic steering when lesser Z4s had electric?

[mattberkshire]

Debaser said:

Finally, someone on PH who knows what they are talking about.

Do you know why the Z4M had hydraulic steering when lesser Z4s had electric?

Not sure if you're being sarcastic! No idea on the Z4M other than maybe as a sop to the Catchpoles/Harris's/Needells of this world (and those who hang on to their every word).

I LOVE sports cars and steering feel and feedback is important to the experience for me, but I don't reckon electric assistance takes away from the sensation one bit

[cerb4.5lee]

Debaser said:

Finally, someone on PH who knows what they are talking about.

Do you know why the Z4M had hydraulic steering when lesser Z4s had electric?

If you believe everything you read it was because the M engineers knew that hydraulic steering was better so they insisted on it for the Z4M...shame they didn't spend more time on the chassis though as I loved the steering on my Z4M but I was less complementary about the chassis.

[iloveboost]

Clive I can't and won't quote your whole post so I'll just reply without quoting.
On the 2.5 RS powertrain pic:
Yes you can understand instantly that all the ride/handling problems are caused by engine weight and placement it's like a back to front 911. It sounds lovely but the car is a bit compromised by it.

On dynamic viscosity damping vs fixed viscosity damping:
Yes I read stuff like that and I think how can adaptive suspension not be calibrated correctly?! If engineers can match dampers mechanically to a spring rate surely matching a damper electronically to a spring rate is no harder and offers more adaptivity based on inputs other than the speed and direction the spring is travelling in? It doesn't make sense to me unless I've missed something?
I don't think adaptive damping needs 'modes' I think that's the marketing department telling engineers that customers want to feel a difference rather than a system where you don't notice it working, because it's working!

[Lowtimer]

mattberkshire said:

Not sure if you're being sarcastic! No idea on the Z4M other than maybe as a sop to the Catchpoles/Harris's/Needells of this world (and those who hang on to their every word).

I LOVE sports cars and steering feel and feedback is important to the experience for me, but I don't reckon electric assistance takes away from the sensation one bit

You're welcome to your opinion but my experience is completely different.
I also judge cars to a significant extent on the tactile qualities of the controls

I really don't like the electric steering on the 991 compared to the superior feel available from the hydraulically assisted 996 or 994.
And I greatly prefer the feel of the hydraulic steering on my E39 to that of the electric steering on my E91.

[Itsallicanafford]

...of course it's fast it's got 300 brake...

I can remember when 150 bhp was plain lunacy, and also when all those house were just fields...

[anonymous-user]

Debaser said:

Finally, someone on PH who knows what they are talking about.

Do you know why the Z4M had hydraulic steering when lesser Z4s had electric?

NSX, electric power steering..it's nothing new!

[underphil]

mattberkshire said:

Drove a an Astra VXR for a week. Steering was fine, in fact it was great. Ride was too brittle and visibility awful due to twin A-pillars but otherwise excellent car

The VXR has hydraulic steering whilst the rest of the Astra range has electric

[RSgeoff]

"I had taken the precaution of both reading nothing about the new S3, and not studying any of the numbers before driving it. I had no idea how much power was claimed by Audi, so was a little shocked when from 2,500rpm in third gear it decided to launch itself down the road like a, well, very fast car indeed".

This from a petrolhead for a "performance car" which has been out for ages now - surely you have seen the car / stats somewhere - even a motorshow??

[NelsonR32]

mt308 said:

These are all good cars, but the 4WD adds a lot of weight. Same in 2003 when I bought a Leon Cupra R over the Audi S3 with same engine but 4WD.

This is a link to a recent track test of the Cupra 280 vs Golf R. The extra weight shows on the Golf if you watch it through the bends.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/golf/86378...

Things have moved on allot since 2003. The latest generation Haldex barely adds 140kgs to the weight of the car. The benefits of the four wheel drive system far exceed the gained weight.

[thepyrrhonist]

jon- said:

Having tracked and roaded the TTRS and TTS, I found the TTS to surprisingly be the better car.

It even seemed to have dialed out some of the horrid understeer the TTRS driving is dominated by.

That glorious 5-pot though...

[cerb4.5lee]

thepyrrhonist said:

jon- said:

Having tracked and roaded the TTRS and TTS, I found the TTS to surprisingly be the better car.

It even seemed to have dialed out some of the horrid understeer the TTRS driving is dominated by.

That glorious 5-pot though...

I think that engine must be great too, considered many times swapping our TTS for the RS but its very rare that you read any good things about it apart from straight line performance...for me surely the RS should be miles better than the TTS as its quicker, looks better and has a far more characterful engine so on paper it does hit the spot.

[P4ROT]

The main problem with Audis is the majority of wky marketing types who drive them

[BFleming]

I just checked, and this very car (KY14BSO) is sitting on a driveway of a house around the corner from me. I doubt it's Harris's house mind, unless he has a fetish for Suzuki jeeps & cats.

[Clivey]

mattberkshire said:

OK. I'd agree to disagree. Have driven hydraulic Cayman R, Boxster S, 911 C2 amongst others and electric Boxster S, Cayman, 911 C2 and 911 Turbo and honestly the steering in the newer cars is no worse. My experience tells me something Public Enemy said - Don't believe the hype

That's fine; I'm not claiming to be some kind of arbiter and this is a discussion so the whole point is for everyone to put forward their thoughts, opinions and experiences.

cerb4.5lee said:

I think its just what you are used to I loved the steering in my E92 M3/Z4M/E90 330i but then I drove our Audi TTS and I had a brand new 320d as a loan car and I hated the electric steering on both massively but like with anything you get used to it so you just adapt to it.

What`s best will always be a matter of opinion...but like the Auto/Twin Clutch debate my preference will always be for the old days hence my love of hydraulic steering and the manual gearbox but that's clearly not the future...I clearly need to go with the times.

I'm sure they said that when the quartz watch came along...in the '50s, people were predicting nuclear-powered cars but here we are over half a century later and Ford are about to bring a NA petrol V8 Mustang with a manual gearbox to the UK.

Maldini35 said:

1) Yes it has 4 tailpipes but it's still very subtle for a 300bhp hatch. From every angle bar the rear end you really struggle to tell it apart from the cooking versions. Have a look at some pics....

But just imagine how much more subtle & tasteful it would look with a single oval.

iloveboost said:

Clive I can't and won't quote your whole post so I'll just reply without quoting.
On the 2.5 RS powertrain pic:
Yes you can understand instantly that all the ride/handling problems are caused by engine weight and placement it's like a back to front 911. It sounds lovely but the car is a bit compromised by it.

I wouldn't quite say "all" but certainly the balance plays a major role in dictating the car's character. It's also still got a front-biased AWD system still isn't a match for the Torsen system of the larger Audis. Basically everything happens on the nose with the RS3 & TTRS and the rear is just dragged along for the ride. The new cars seem to have a more adjustable and neutral set up though, which is positive progress.

iloveboost said:

On dynamic viscosity damping vs fixed viscosity damping:
Yes I read stuff like that and I think how can adaptive suspension not be calibrated correctly?! If engineers can match dampers mechanically to a spring rate surely matching a damper electronically to a spring rate is no harder and offers more adaptivity based on inputs other than the speed and direction the spring is travelling in? It doesn't make sense to me unless I've missed something?
I don't think adaptive damping needs 'modes' I think that's the marketing department telling engineers that customers want to feel a difference rather than a system where you don't notice it working, because it's working!

I think there's been a nail-head interface there. As you say; if it's working properly, adapting to the prevailing conditions, why do you need a mode that's only going to detract from the optimal performance?

[bakerstreet]

Clivey said:

Both.

One of the reasons I prefer the E46 3-Series over the newer models is the steering. Same with BMW Minis (R53 is better than the R56 - we've had 2 of the former and 3 of the latter in the family) and plenty of others. Not all electric steering is terrible - it can suit a car's character. I liked the systems in the Citroen C4, C6 and Jaguar XF but all of the standout cars I've driven have had feelsome hydraulic systems.

IIRC the R56 rack was also less lightly to fail and set light to itself either!

[scherzkeks]

Clivey said:

My feeling is that they are describing every road car and every FWD/Haldex car ever made! What do you think?

Perhaps a discussion on the interplay between suspension design and wheelbase would be more productive than your "feelings."

Clivey said:

The RS3 has a boat anchor of an engine in front of the front axle, hence the need for wider front tyres, a stiff setup etc. etc.



This makes me shudder when I see it. - I mean; the whole engine is ahead of the axle FFS! The only thing they could have done worse is make it taller...oh, yeah they did that too. Also see the comment above about the TTS handling better than the RS. Now they've moved on to the MQB platform with, amongst other things, better weight distribution and a reduced front overhang is it a surprise the new cars (Golf R and S3) are much improved?

Here we go again. The engine position is the same as virtually every other sport compact on the market -- and from a handling standpoint, is even better than last-gen big Audis, where the entire engine really was ahead of the axle and positioned higher than the equivalent transverse app.

Also that "boat anchor" is particularly compact and weighs just 30 kg more than the newestlightweight TFSI in the 8V (the older one obviously being heavier). The RS also employed carbon fiber body panels up front to offset the marginal weight difference, and has the same weight bias same as the current S3.

Moving on...