Cycle races on dual carriageways !

[0836whimper]

s p a c e m a n said:

It's thrill seeking on a public highway which in my opinion should only be done on a closed road.

A suggestion, but would also rule out enjoying sports cars on the open road. I'm not sure most on Pistonheads would agree.

s p a c e m a n said:

Do the clubs have to contact the police and ask permission for this, because whenever someone tries to do that with cars around here it is met with dispersal orders regardless of who is asking and how well organised it is.

Yes, Police are aware and have the power to stop it if they have a good reason.

[SL22]

jayemm89 said:

kambites said:

Only if the drivers don't know how to drive. "Stop in the distance you can see to be clear" is about the most fundamental thing there is to road driving.

And let's be brutally honest here, how many of us see huge lines of HGVs with about 15 foot, if that, between them? Even if one lorried pull out of the way, the one behind wouldn't in time.

And as I have quoted to several people - being right doesn't help you if you're DEAD. I don't care how much it is my RIGHT to cycle on a dual carriageway, the moral high ground will do me no good when someone has to use a spatula to get me off the front of a lorry.

In recent times people have died in that Time Trial that uses the A50. I live very close and cycle quite a bit. I personally have chosen not to enter that event because even though can control your own actions, be it on a bike or in a car, but you cannot control the stupidity of some other road users...

The Time Trial season has really started now the clocks 'have gone back'. Usually its Tuesday/Thursday nights after 7pm, but there are some on a Weekend.

[yellowjack]

The 'racing' thing is misleading. It's a 'time trial' - the purpose of which is to be tested against the clock without any of the advantages of riding in a bunch. Participants are set off at intervals, be it 30 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes, whatever. They 'race' themselves, to set a time. This time can then be compared with other participants times. So, technically it isn't 'racing' but it sounds very much like it.

The reason these 'Time Trials' tend not to run on slower, twistier roads which have more 'T' junctions and crossroads on them, is safety. It is actually safer to run them on A roads, which on the whole have good long sections where cyclists should be readily visible to drivers who bother to look for them. The fewer junctions the better, as drivers pulling out from a side turn may misjudge the closing speed of the cyclists, resulting in horrible 'T-bone' collisions. Speeds over 30mph are not unusual in time trials.

The ideal route is a flat, smooth, relatively straight section of an 'A' road, with a layby or similar for a start point, a roundabout roughly five miles away as the halfway turn around, and another roundabout back from the start/finish point to allow riders to complete the circuit to return to the start. Riders are briefed prior to the event, regarding riding safely and with consideration, and particular risks on a course are pointed out to them.

For an event with 30 participants, it would take 30 minutes to get them all away (at 1 minute intervals) with the slowest riders leaving first. The faster riders would take only 23/24 minutes to complete the course, so the event is effectively done and dusted in less than 1 hour.

I'm not going to argue the relative merits of individual courses, nor do I know the A50 very well, so I'll not defend 'rogue' cyclists on that route. Be aware though, that what a lot of drivers consider to be utter insanity or 'poor road manners' is often done for good reason by cyclists. Taking the whole of lane 1? What's the problem? You shouldn't be too close to a bike anyway, so really need to be in lane 2 to complete your overtake, having spotted the cyclist early because your observations are good, and you are reading the road ahead. I ride a local dual carriageway to me (the A30) because it's the only road that goes in the direction I want to travel, and I get off onto quieter roads as soon as I can. Yet when I've tried to see the drivers' point of view, and ridden well to the left, all that happens is I get my elbow brushed by every second vehicle. If I move out to the centre of lane 1, traffic is forced to get at least partway over the white line, at which point they realise that it's actually just as effective to move fully across into lane 2. The knock on effect is that drivers behind them can also see the (now obvious) manoeuvre and prepare earlier to overtake in turn - better for the cyclist, better for the motorist. It's the morons who squeeze past without crossing over the line that cause the problems, shortening the distance at which following drivers first see the bike.

It is worth noting that this kind of event puts no more strain on the road network, nor inconveniences other road users any more than the annual London to Brighton recovery conventions run by the Veteran car nutters or the Mini clubs. What's easier to pass on an 'A' road? A series of solo cyclists, or a long and winding bumper to bumper convoy of wheezy Beetles and Camper vans heading to Brighton for yet another tedious 'Dubfest' or 'Crooze'?

Edited by yellowjack on Sunday 13th April 17:08

[Mr Gear]

JDMDrifter said:

It just seems very dangerous due to the difference in speed, I suppose the same applies to mopeds on DCs.

Which isn't illegal either.

Anyone who struggles to cope with cyclists while driving needs to examine their own driving ability.

[jayemm89]

I am sure that I do speak for the overwhelming majority of PHers when I say I don't mind cyclists on the roads. I am very happy for them to be there.

I have driven in London, a lot, and I don't have any issue with the 99.9% of cyclists that are there. I'm pretty sure people who cycle probably get even angrier with that 0.01% of kamikaze pilots than I do, because they give them a bad name. Just as I get annoyed when any twerp in a BMW plants it in a hedge round here, I get branded with the same "boy racer" label.

I think the majority of people here are simply concerned about the safety and well-being of cyclists and very few of us would wish any sort of harm on a cyclist.

However, the simple fact remains that on a busy dual carriageway, I won't even say most, but some HGV drivers seem oblivious to what lies ahead and this - too often - frequently spells doom for the poor cyclists who are using the road. What gets me, in particular, is because this is a race (or time trial, or whatever you want to call it) it was really not necessary for those cyclists to be there in the first place?

Now I'm sorry if cyclists disagree with me, but I cannot possibly comprehend choosing to cycle on a dual carriageway as a safe option. It is only "safer" because as has been suggested, people are going for a good time and on a country/B-road you're maybe not going to stop at a junction if you're pretty sure you can make it across. That is not damning cyclists. That is the mentality of anyone who wants to win - you will be taking risks, whatever it is you're doing.

Cycling is massively popular now and I don't see why they (the government, the cycling bodies ,whoever) cannot put more effort into perhaps closing off some roads completely for these events. If it will be as quick as you say it is (and I have no reason to doubt you) it won't cause much inconvenience - we motorised things can use the A-roads to get around.

I used to ride a moped. There are plenty of roads I wouldn't even consider going on because I know I would be incompatible with the existing traffic. I don't care about right, wrong, stopping distances, judging, etc.... I want to arrive home safely and I will alter my route to do that. Every death is a tragedy and I can't imagine any of us telling a recently widowed woman "It's fine, because actually your husband was exercising his right of way, so fortunately the HGV driver (who is fine) feels really bad about it. He was in the wrong. Your husband is dead, but at least he was right."

This is a scenario that played out, in my family, 15 years ago - I am not insensitive to the needs of cyclists etc... but I don't want to see anyone die on the roads when there must have been an alternative.

[Rich_W]

JDMDrifter said:

Hi all,

Bit of a rant

Yeah, there's never been anti cycling rants before have there.

JDMDrifter said:

this slowing me up and a line of cars behind me.

Yeah everyone should just get off the road just for you! What if it was a C63 AMG or a Bus doing half the speed in the same space? I daresay you wouldn't have even posted this thread.

JDMDrifter said:

He doesn't move over and insist on taking up all road until we join, I overtake and carry on.

Apparently it's a dual carriageway and YOU managed to negociate the slower traffic just fine. So what's the problem again? It's called driving responsibly. You managed it. Sounds like many others there couldn't so aim your ire at them.

JDMDrifter said:

now this is just plain dangerous as they are taking up lanes thus causing HGVs to swerve quite erratically into Lane 2 causing faster moving traffic to slow down very quickly.

As above (and we've done this to death on PH recently) they are ALLOWED by LAW to be there. So they aren't "taking up lanes" they are USING the ROAD.

And the swerving HGV drivers are at fault for not looking at the road and then panicking and swerving lanes without checking mirrors. Again aim your rage at the right people

JDMDrifter said:

This carries on for 5-10 miles and I also witness a cyclist swerving around causing the car behind to take evasive action whilst trying to overtake.

Wasn't there. But did the cyclist veer across to the second lane? Seems odd. Pretty stupid even. But can't comment specifically. Or are you now talking about a road that wasn't a Dual Carriageway?

JDMDrifter said:

My question really is why is this allowed on such busy/dangerous roads?

Cause they pay Council Tax and the law of the land allows Time Trials on the road for bikes. AND also cars are allowed to do Time Trials. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regularity_rally Maybe you could go and drift around on one of those?

On a side note. A fair chunk of London today couldn't drive around today because 40K runners had taken over the place. Notice how most people there realise the world doesn't revolve around them and just make adjustments accordingly

dxg said:

The hobbyist, lycra-clad cyclists in this part of the world (I'm near you) seem to have a bit of an agenda, shall we say. And now that the sun's back, they're out in force.

Yesterday, for example, I was stuck behind a group of three in a 30 zone. They were riding two-abreast and taking a while to make their way up a hill. I elected to stay behind them, as it was a busy road and, due to the brow of the hill I couldn't see far enough ahead to give them enough space.

I got a pile of abuse for my trouble when I finally was able to move into the oncoming lane to pass them at the top of the hill.

150 yards later and I'm waiting at traffic lights waiting to turn left. The lights turn green and I'd fully seen this group approaching up the inside at speed. I didn't even move off when the lights changed to green as I knew what was coming.

Sure enough, another pile of abuse, with added hand gestures, this time. And my car hadn't even moved.

I guess I should count myself lucky I still have my passenger wing mirror. I suppose I do, because I was actually using it.

And this is not an isolated incident. On their own, they're like the horse riders round here - fine. But put them in a pack and a story changes...

I have to say this can be true. Not all groups obviously, tends to be the more casual ones rather than those out training for an event.

I know a person who rides with a casual club group and they sound like a bunch of s to be honest. Told me a story with great excited-ness that he rounded a corner on the wrong side of the road causing the driver to have to brake and swerve. This group are just typical selfish people. Matters not if they are on 2,3 or 4 wheels. They are probably the same. The type that drvie down a road with cars parked wither side and then wait for YOU to back up. We all know the type. But it honestly fks me off, because these are the people that give people, like me, who ride alone the most grief. I get it in the neck because "you cyclists" Despite the fact I try to ride sensibly and stop at red lights etc

[paranoid airbag]

johnnyBv8 said:

Erm, why do they have more right?!

Because, as a rule, not many cyclists slam two tonnes of metal into someone at 70 mph, after failing to abide by the most basic rule of roadcraft there is, then act as though it's the victim's fault they're dead.

The law favouring the more vulnerable party in that situation is pretty much the definition of "civilisation". Something a few members of PH should maybe become better acquainted with.

[Highway Star]

dxg said:

The hobbyist, lycra-clad cyclists in this part of the world (I'm near you) seem to have a bit of an agenda, shall we say. And now that the sun's back, they're out in force.

Yesterday, for example, I was stuck behind a group of three in a 30 zone. They were riding two-abreast and taking a while to make their way up a hill. I elected to stay behind them, as it was a busy road and, due to the brow of the hill I couldn't see far enough ahead to give them enough space.

I got a pile of abuse for my trouble when I finally was able to move into the oncoming lane to pass them at the top of the hill.

150 yards later and I'm waiting at traffic lights waiting to turn left. The lights turn green and I'd fully seen this group approaching up the inside at speed. I didn't even move off when the lights changed to green as I knew what was coming.

Sure enough, another pile of abuse, with added hand gestures, this time. And my car hadn't even moved.

I guess I should count myself lucky I still have my passenger wing mirror. I suppose I do, because I was actually using it.

And this is not an isolated incident. On their own, they're like the horse riders round here - fine. But put them in a pack and a story changes...

Come on, what did you do when you passed them? Unlikely that they would give you abuse either for no reason whatsoever (unless you came across a club ride of Sociopath CC), especially for a second time when they caught you at the lights.

I come across groups of cyclists all the time, often on the single track lanes near where I live which means I have to spend a goodly amount of time behind them until safe to pass. I have never once received abuse from them for passing them and generally am acknowledged with thanks for patience and consideration.

I would say as much as they may have an 'agenda', you also have one, which your posting this 'story' on this thread would support.

[jimbop1]

kambites said:

Why would it not be allowed? Cyclists have more right to use non-motorway dual-carriageways than drivers do.

Having said that, I've always been a bit dubious of actual racing on the road, if that's what they were doing.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 13th April 15:55

cyclists have more rights than drivers now do they?!

To the OP I'm afraid this is just cyclists for you. They don't care about other road users or the dangers they cause. In fact it probably makes them quite happy that they have annoyed you, and probably many other motorists that where on the same road.

[The Wookie]

There's a large speed differential, cyclists aren't necessarily always easy to spot a long way ahead (if they're wearing dark clothes and are in the shadows of trees for example), and, let's face it, like it or not, most drivers are fairly crap and barely look past the end of their bonnet.

So in lieu of a fundamental change in driver licensing laws, it's probably not the wisest thing to be doing.

[xRIEx]

paranoid airbag said:

johnnyBv8 said:

Erm, why do they have more right?!

Because, as a rule, not many cyclists slam two tonnes of metal into someone at 70 mph,

That doesn't equate to 'more right', though.


A time trial event might as well be a race - the fastest wins. The extremely competitive competitors may put winning above their own or others' saftey, and for that reason I would prefer that roads were closed for these events, like they do with running events.

A timekeeping event where they need to maintain a particular average speed, not too slow, not too fast is better suited to open roads, as a time deficit can be made up at other points, so competitors don't have to travel flat out all the time. Car rallies can manage fine on public roads in this manner.

[1ians]

jayemm89 said:

And as I have quoted to several people - being right doesn't help you if you're DEAD. I don't care how much it is my RIGHT to cycle on a dual carriageway, the moral high ground will do me no good when someone has to use a spatula to get me off the front of a lorry.

My view too. There's a dual carriageway near me where a couple of cyclists are killed every year. I witnessed a hit and run on a cyclist on that road a few months back too.

Why they won't use the cycle path or cycle through the village the dual carriageway is beyond me. Actually on that point I witness the same on a busy fast flowing B road, again there's a great cycle path nearby but they'd rather save 2 minutes.

[wolves_wanderer]

jimbop1 said:

cyclists have more rights than drivers now do they?!

They can use the roads without a licence clever clogs.

[mobile chicane22]

A4 coming into hungerford yesterday still well in the nsl propper lycra warrior suddenly appears from a side road dosent even look just pulls into the road very heavy breaking on my part and the car coming the other way giving me room to swerve round him are all that saved his stupid ass.

I kid you not the guy did not look just rolled out of the side road into my path at about 10 mph.

I was in a decent road car doing 50 in a 60 If I'd been in my works van doing 40 in a 60 I may not have missed him.

[Martin4x4]

They do the same thing on the A63 and refused to stop even one of them was killed as a result of his dangerous riding and the Police are powerless.

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Police-powerless-st...

[Getragdogleg]

As a cyclist I am staggered by the poor driving I see from motor vehicle drivers, passing too close, overtaking as I am going around roundabouts, coming and waiting right next to me while I am at a junction despite me getting there first and waiting with arm out to turn right.

As a Car/Truck/Crane driver I am staggered by the poor driving is see from cyclists, riding two or three abreast to wind up the motorist, not waiting at traffic lights, cutting across junctions and hopping on and off pavements when it suits and trying to pass on the inside when I am turning left.

As a conclusion I can honestly say that there are a lot of utter s out there who belong indoors and nowhere near the roads.

[xRIEx]

wolves_wanderer said:

jimbop1 said:

cyclists have more rights than drivers now do they?!

They can use the roads without a licence clever clogs.

And drivers have licences. That's why they're, y'know, drivers.

[wolves_wanderer]

Martin4x4 said:

They do the same thing on the A63 and refused to stop even one of them was killed as a result of his dangerous riding and the Police are powerless.

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Police-powerless-st...

Someone died in a car crash near me recently. I have also refused to stop driving.

[wolves_wanderer]

xRIEx said:

wolves_wanderer said:

jimbop1 said:

cyclists have more rights than drivers now do they?!

They can use the roads without a licence clever clogs.

And drivers have licences. That's why they're, y'know, drivers.

So cyclists have a right drivers don't then? You could almost say they have more rights I guess

[Rich_W]

jimbop1 said:

To the OP I'm afraid this is just cyclists for you. They don't care about other road users or the dangers they cause. In fact it probably makes them quite happy that they have annoyed you, and probably many other motorists that where on the same road.

My actual worry is you truly believe that. Obviously everyone that rides a bike does so just with the sole purpose of "sticking it to car drivers"

Seriously. Do you wake up each morning and think "People may have forgotten how much of a tt I am on PH. I need to remind them at every opportunity"

EVERY single cyclist thread you chip in with your stupidness. We get it. You don't like bikes. You don't like the paramedic that rides one or the teacher that rides to school. Or even the postman that delivers your stuff. You hate them all because they are all wkers. And of course you are perfect in every way and never inconvinence anyone for even the tiniest time do you

The Wookie said:

There's a large speed differential, cyclists aren't necessarily always easy to spot a long way ahead (if they're wearing dark clothes and are in the shadows of trees for example), and, let's face it, like it or not, most drivers are fairly crap and barely look past the end of their bonnet.

So in lieu of a fundamental change in driver licensing laws, it's probably not the wisest thing to be doing.

Victim blaming is not really the answer.

And of course many things are not the wisest thing to do, but so long as the laws of the UK allow it. I'm happy to live and let live. Most drivers can deal with a bike on the side of the road. The ones that can't should be removed from the road IMO.

1ians said:

My view too. There's a dual carriageway near me where a couple of cyclists are killed every year. I witnessed a hit and run on a cyclist on that road a few months back too.

Why they won't use the cycle path or cycle through the village the dual carriageway is beyond me. Actually on that point I witness the same on a busy fast flowing B road, again there's a great cycle path nearby but they'd rather save 2 minutes.

We've been over this :sigh:

a) Hit and Run is a st driver. Nothing to do with the bike rider. who was apparently legally using the road. Again. You're victim blaming. If he wasn't there (legally) he wouldn't have been killed. Do rape victims deserve it because they were in a nightclub having a few drinks. Far safer to be at home wouldn't you think?

b) Cycle paths are not always the safest place to be. Especially if you're riding at speed and it's a shared one with pedestrains. Sometimes they are, but there;s one a few miles from me I'd love to use. But it's like riding over the surface of the moon covered in glass (punctures) and all sorts of rubbish and st. Plus couple points where the trees just block it completely. It would be far safer to use it but it's virtually unuseable. And this is the same county that hosted the 2012 Olympic cycle race and love to bang on about how great they are at promoting cycling...

mobile chicane22 said:

A4 coming into hungerford yesterday still well in the nsl propper lycra warrior suddenly appears from a side road dosent even look just pulls into the road very heavy breaking on my part and the car coming the other way giving me room to swerve round him are all that saved his stupid ass.

I kid you not the guy did not look just rolled out of the side road into my path at about 10 mph.

I was in a decent road car doing 50 in a 60 If I'd been in my works van doing 40 in a 60 I may not have missed him.

50 in a 60. Yeah right No one does 50 in a 60. Especially when they are in a decent road car. I know I don't Saying that. There are as Getragdogleg says. st people on bikes and st people in cars. Just the way of life I suppose. I don't blindly assume that because I got cut up by the Micra that ALL Nissan iowners are st though. judge on individual merit. I even bet some 911 owners make mistakes...

wolves_wanderer said:

Martin4x4 said:

They do the same thing on the A63 and refused to stop even one of them was killed as a result of his dangerous riding and the Police are powerless.

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Police-powerless-st...

Someone died in a car crash near me recently. I have also refused to stop driving.

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 13th April 18:42

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 13th April 18:43