Cycle races on dual carriageways !
Discussion
yonex said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
Didn't the taxpayer build them a nice velodrome to play in? Perhaps they could go and ride their bikes there. Or perhaps I could take my car along to join in their fun!! 
Don't worry when you have campaigned successfully for everyone's freedoms to be removed and your car has been consigned to the dustbin through monster taxation and fuel duty you'll soon get the idea of cycling 
Pan Pan said:
yonex said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
Didn't the taxpayer build them a nice velodrome to play in? Perhaps they could go and ride their bikes there. Or perhaps I could take my car along to join in their fun!!
Don't worry when you have campaigned successfully for everyone's freedoms to be removed and your car has been consigned to the dustbin through monster taxation and fuel duty you'll soon get the idea of cycling yellowjack said:
This is the same Snowboy who tells us that TTers ofetn ride three abreast, and reports events lasting 'hours'. He's watched too much Jackanory, I reckon 
FWIW I have ridden only one TT course (Audley End E1/10), a total of three times, so no massive depth of experience. What I will say is that, even with solid double white lines over the first/last miles, and cyclists on both the out and return legs, it was still possible for capable, sensible drivers to manage the simple controls of their vehicle sufficient to effect a safe overtake with the minimum of delay. There's the one roundabout at the far end, marked by a marshal and signage. I never once saw a participant take a risk and pull out onto the roundabout against priority. I did see a couple of near misses with cars failing to give way to bikes already on the roundabout though. Strange, given the 'experiences' related by anti-cycling posters herein. I also witnessed impatient morons pull out of side turns directly, and deliberately, into the path of fast approaching cyclists who were on the priority route.
Yes, TTs can be dangerous. So can crossing the road. I haven't given that up yet, and don't intend to, despite the fact that I was once nearly hit by a daft woman driving through a red light on a PeLiCon crossing. (I had the last laugh, though, as a uniformed policeman using a nearby cashpoint pulled her over and had a word.)
So your experience of this is riding one event three times.FWIW I have ridden only one TT course (Audley End E1/10), a total of three times, so no massive depth of experience. What I will say is that, even with solid double white lines over the first/last miles, and cyclists on both the out and return legs, it was still possible for capable, sensible drivers to manage the simple controls of their vehicle sufficient to effect a safe overtake with the minimum of delay. There's the one roundabout at the far end, marked by a marshal and signage. I never once saw a participant take a risk and pull out onto the roundabout against priority. I did see a couple of near misses with cars failing to give way to bikes already on the roundabout though. Strange, given the 'experiences' related by anti-cycling posters herein. I also witnessed impatient morons pull out of side turns directly, and deliberately, into the path of fast approaching cyclists who were on the priority route.
Yes, TTs can be dangerous. So can crossing the road. I haven't given that up yet, and don't intend to, despite the fact that I was once nearly hit by a daft woman driving through a red light on a PeLiCon crossing. (I had the last laugh, though, as a uniformed policeman using a nearby cashpoint pulled her over and had a word.)
My experience is have three large regular meets near my house.
I'm not really sure why you think your experience somehow invalidates mine.
IroningMan said:
Pan Pan said:
yonex said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
Didn't the taxpayer build them a nice velodrome to play in? Perhaps they could go and ride their bikes there. Or perhaps I could take my car along to join in their fun!!
Don't worry when you have campaigned successfully for everyone's freedoms to be removed and your car has been consigned to the dustbin through monster taxation and fuel duty you'll soon get the idea of cycling This is about the government having to switch their tax take, almost entirely onto cycling, to make up for what they currently take off motorists every year (which they currently do not take off cycling)
The above is a situation where motor vehicles may not be generally available (except for the very very well off) to the general public.
In the early days when this was exactly the case, and only the wealthy were able to own / use motor vehicles to travel significant distances. The poor generally walked, or used bicycles, and this meant their horizons, and scope for finding work, and a home were limited to the tiny distances they could travel in a day, and still have the energy to do a days work, (and then get home afterwards)
Also there were more trains and public transport, serving a much smaller population than we have now.
Many people barely traveled more than 50 miles from where they were born in their entire lives.
Not sure about you, but this is a scenario that I feel I and many others would simply never want to go back to.
So I get tired of all the tree huggers who only want to focus on the negative aspects of vehicle use (we could do exactly the same and focus on the negative aspects of cycle use, but doing this for both modes of transport would hardly advance arguments for either of them) but they seem quite able to ignore all the advantages, and freedom that vehicle use brings to the `ordinary' man in the street.
I believe that the advantages of vehicle use vastly vastly outweigh the disadvantages, and until someone comes up with a mode of transport that is actually better, we will continue with vehicles (albeit using different fuels) for a long time into the future. We cannot / must not turn the clock back to a much poorer, less efficient way of getting ourselves about.
Snowboy said:
So your experience of this is riding one event three times.
My experience is have three large regular meets near my house.
I'm not really sure why you think your experience somehow invalidates mine.
Because it appears you're expanding on the truth. If it was a TT then it wouldn't just 'go away'. Three large regular meets every week, doesn't happen. More than likely these will be club rides. This doesn't alter the fact you are an impatient and angry driver.My experience is have three large regular meets near my house.
I'm not really sure why you think your experience somehow invalidates mine.
yonex said:
Snowboy said:
So your experience of this is riding one event three times.
My experience is have three large regular meets near my house.
I'm not really sure why you think your experience somehow invalidates mine.
Because it appears you're expanding on the truth. If it was a TT then it wouldn't just 'go away'. Three large regular meets every week, doesn't happen. More than likely these will be club rides. This doesn't alter the fact you are an impatient and angry driver.My experience is have three large regular meets near my house.
I'm not really sure why you think your experience somehow invalidates mine.
At least I assume they are time trials. Lots of bikes, wearing numbers, riding between 0 and 200 yards apart.
It's three different clubs I think. Rather than one club meeting three times.
Oh, and I'm not an angry and impatient driver by the way.
I'm fairly chilled out. But I can still recognise selfish and disruptive behaviour from the cycle clubs without getting angry about it.
That seems to be the base argument from cyclists though when they are disruptive; to blame the driver for being impatient or angry, while totally ignoring that they are being disruptive.
Or to accuse the poster of lying, and refuse to acknowledge there's any sort of problem at all.
Edited by Snowboy on Tuesday 15th April 08:57
One man's "disruption" is another man just going about his business.
As you agree they have every right to be there.
Your willingness to pay to use the roads through car ownership, MOT, insurance, fuel, tax etc... means that you have given your tacit agreement to accepting the basic principle of sharing the road with others.
Some of those others might progress slower than you want to. Tough. Learn to deal with it.
I used to live near Twickenham Stadium and not once did I complain about the "selfish and disruptive" rugby fans driving to the stadium and creating traffic mayhem - that is simply part of what sharing the roads around the stadium means.
If for some utterly bizarre reason you simply HAVE to use the roads when these guys are out cycling (and your driving skills are so poor you can't overtake bikes 200 yards apart) then perhaps you should have done more research before moving there. I am sure your neighbours would have been able to warn you of this "bloody great inconvenience" that no doubt lowers the property values locally.
As you agree they have every right to be there.
Your willingness to pay to use the roads through car ownership, MOT, insurance, fuel, tax etc... means that you have given your tacit agreement to accepting the basic principle of sharing the road with others.
Some of those others might progress slower than you want to. Tough. Learn to deal with it.
I used to live near Twickenham Stadium and not once did I complain about the "selfish and disruptive" rugby fans driving to the stadium and creating traffic mayhem - that is simply part of what sharing the roads around the stadium means.
If for some utterly bizarre reason you simply HAVE to use the roads when these guys are out cycling (and your driving skills are so poor you can't overtake bikes 200 yards apart) then perhaps you should have done more research before moving there. I am sure your neighbours would have been able to warn you of this "bloody great inconvenience" that no doubt lowers the property values locally.
If you take the TTs off of the dual carriageways and put them onto single carriageway A or B roads, you'll get far more accidents as visibility is generally poorer, and there isn't the second lane to use to pass cycles - cars have to move into the opposing lane to pass cycles.
So surely holding Time Trials on a dual carriageway, where there is excellent visibility and plenty of opportunity to pass without the risk of oncoming traffic, is one of the safest options.
So surely holding Time Trials on a dual carriageway, where there is excellent visibility and plenty of opportunity to pass without the risk of oncoming traffic, is one of the safest options.
walm said:
One man's "disruption" is another man just going about his business.
As you agree they have every right to be there.
Your willingness to pay to use the roads through car ownership, MOT, insurance, fuel, tax etc... means that you have given your tacit agreement to accepting the basic principle of sharing the road with others.
Some of those others might progress slower than you want to. Tough. Learn to deal with it.
I used to live near Twickenham Stadium and not once did I complain about the "selfish and disruptive" rugby fans driving to the stadium and creating traffic mayhem - that is simply part of what sharing the roads around the stadium means.
If for some utterly bizarre reason you simply HAVE to use the roads when these guys are out cycling (and your driving skills are so poor you can't overtake bikes 200 yards apart) then perhaps you should have done more research before moving there. I am sure your neighbours would have been able to warn you of this "bloody great inconvenience" that no doubt lowers the property values locally.
You've just cherry picked elements of my post there to pick apart without actually looking at the overall question.As you agree they have every right to be there.
Your willingness to pay to use the roads through car ownership, MOT, insurance, fuel, tax etc... means that you have given your tacit agreement to accepting the basic principle of sharing the road with others.
Some of those others might progress slower than you want to. Tough. Learn to deal with it.
I used to live near Twickenham Stadium and not once did I complain about the "selfish and disruptive" rugby fans driving to the stadium and creating traffic mayhem - that is simply part of what sharing the roads around the stadium means.
If for some utterly bizarre reason you simply HAVE to use the roads when these guys are out cycling (and your driving skills are so poor you can't overtake bikes 200 yards apart) then perhaps you should have done more research before moving there. I am sure your neighbours would have been able to warn you of this "bloody great inconvenience" that no doubt lowers the property values locally.
It's a bit sad really.
Anyhow.
I'm out if this discussion, it's just going the same as the others.
The cycling community don't recognise (or care?) they're causing a problem, so there's no chance of finding a constructive solution.
In fairness I think you are probably right that the cycling community doesn't recognise that there is a problem.
And so far, nothing on the thread has persuaded me that they are wrong.
If change.org had a 100,000 person petition demanding and end to the three regular TTs near Snowboy's house or even if you could point to some local parish council minutes voicing residents' displeasure at their enormous inconvenience then perhaps that might be something you could describe as "a problem".
Have you written to the council? Have you written to the clubs? Made contact with the police?
If not then your "bloody great inconvenience" can't be all that inconvenient otherwise you would have done something about it.
In the meantime it remains a selfish keyboard-warrier-esque exaggerated whinge from an impatient driver with a lower-than-average tolerance for other slower and more vulnerable road users; plus ca change.
And so far, nothing on the thread has persuaded me that they are wrong.
If change.org had a 100,000 person petition demanding and end to the three regular TTs near Snowboy's house or even if you could point to some local parish council minutes voicing residents' displeasure at their enormous inconvenience then perhaps that might be something you could describe as "a problem".
Have you written to the council? Have you written to the clubs? Made contact with the police?
If not then your "bloody great inconvenience" can't be all that inconvenient otherwise you would have done something about it.
In the meantime it remains a selfish keyboard-warrier-esque exaggerated whinge from an impatient driver with a lower-than-average tolerance for other slower and more vulnerable road users; plus ca change.
walm said:
In fairness I think you are probably right that the cycling community doesn't recognise that there is a problem.
And so far, nothing on the thread has persuaded me that they are wrong.
If change.org had a 100,000 person petition demanding and end to the three regular TTs near Snowboy's house or even if you could point to some local parish council minutes voicing residents' displeasure at their enormous inconvenience then perhaps that might be something you could describe as "a problem".
Have you written to the council? Have you written to the clubs? Made contact with the police?
If not then your "bloody great inconvenience" can't be all that inconvenient otherwise you would have done something about it.
In the meantime it remains a selfish keyboard-warrier-esque exaggerated whinge from an impatient driver with a lower-than-average tolerance for other slower and more vulnerable road users; plus ca change.
As you've asked a direct question of me I'll be polite enough to answer. But then I'm out. And so far, nothing on the thread has persuaded me that they are wrong.
If change.org had a 100,000 person petition demanding and end to the three regular TTs near Snowboy's house or even if you could point to some local parish council minutes voicing residents' displeasure at their enormous inconvenience then perhaps that might be something you could describe as "a problem".
Have you written to the council? Have you written to the clubs? Made contact with the police?
If not then your "bloody great inconvenience" can't be all that inconvenient otherwise you would have done something about it.
In the meantime it remains a selfish keyboard-warrier-esque exaggerated whinge from an impatient driver with a lower-than-average tolerance for other slower and more vulnerable road users; plus ca change.
In answer to your three questions.
Yes, Yes and Yes.
I hope that the worst club have been stopped as I haven't seen them yet this year.
You've made a lot of wrong and hostile assumptions in that post of yours, it's not an entirely nice way to have a discussion.
Snowboy said:
In answer to your three questions.
Yes, Yes and Yes.
In that case I take back the "keyboard-warrior-esque" part and apologies for the "hostility".Yes, Yes and Yes.
Fair enough if you are "out" but out of interest if you have a moment what did they all say?
And if you have evidence (e.g. "council agreed with my complaints" or "police agreed to intervene") wouldn't that be more convincing than simply your word against what sounds like not much inconvenience to back up your "bloody great inconvenience" claim??
This morning i passed a jogger who was running down an A/B road. Should we ban him too? Or the drivers who passed him on a poorly sighted corner forcing me to slow down to walking pace to avoid driving into them? Should we ban the horses, bikes and cows i also encounter on the same road so i can drive along it at 60 without having to think?
mcdjl said:
This morning i passed a jogger who was running down an A/B road.
A what road? Which road was it?mcdjl said:
...Or the drivers who passed him on a poorly sighted corner forcing me to slow down to walking pace to avoid driving into them?
Well that's obviously poor driving. - I don't know about "ban" but anyone doing that needs to be spoken to and made to stop.mcdjl said:
Should we ban the horses, bikes and cows i also encounter on the same road so i can drive along it at 60 without having to think?
I don't think anyone here wants the bit in bold. Without knowing which road you're talking about, we can't really respond sensibly to the rest of the question.walm said:
In that case I take back the "keyboard-warrior-esque" part and apologies for the "hostility".
Fair enough if you are "out" but out of interest if you have a moment what did they all say?
And if you have evidence (e.g. "council agreed with my complaints" or "police agreed to intervene") wouldn't that be more convincing than simply your word against what sounds like not much inconvenience to back up your "bloody great inconvenience" claim??
Just some standard replies that they would investigate our concerns.Fair enough if you are "out" but out of interest if you have a moment what did they all say?
And if you have evidence (e.g. "council agreed with my complaints" or "police agreed to intervene") wouldn't that be more convincing than simply your word against what sounds like not much inconvenience to back up your "bloody great inconvenience" claim??
The cycle club didn't reply to my email.
I do wish I had a dashcam.
I think you would be surprised to see the things that happen.
Things that do seem unlikely or unbelievable.
I am not against recreational cycling.
I am not against sensible considerate clubs.
I am against dangerous, inconsiderate and disruptive clubs abusing the roads.
Snowboy said:
I am against dangerous, inconsiderate and disruptive clubs abusing the roads.
Thanks for the reply.I can well believe there might be some truly shocking cycling by these guys.
I can well believe they might regularly ignore the priorities at junctions, overtake without a lifesaver and go 3-up.
All of that is totally unacceptable and I wholeheartedly support you encouraging the authorities to take action...
But what I refuse to accept is that cycling clubs holding TTs where they respect the rules of the road (and usually hold them outside of busy times) are being inconsiderate or disruptive.
I believe we should separately address the OP, which is a complaint about perfectly legitimate road use, and poor/illegal road use that happens coincidentally.
They are two very different issues and I am worried you believe once necessarily entails the other (and hence ban them all!).
Snowboy said:
I am not against recreational cycling.
I am not against sensible considerate clubs.
I am against dangerous, inconsiderate and disruptive clubs abusing the roads.
Glad we've cleared that up I am not against sensible considerate clubs.
I am against dangerous, inconsiderate and disruptive clubs abusing the roads.
Basically as long as you are not inconvenienced by anyone everything's fine. It sad that cyclists have to share the roads with drivers like you really.
Snowboy said:
The cycling community don't recognise (or care?) they're causing a problem, so there's no chance of finding a constructive solution.
And what "constructive solution" are you trying to find? Do you care that you're trying to cause them a problem by asking them to stop doing something they enjoy?As far as I can see, you're not and you don't, so moaning that they don't care about you is hypocritical. You can say "I'm not against cycling" all you want but as it stands the only difference is in your head.
walm said:
But what I refuse to accept is that cycling clubs holding TTs where they respect the rules of the road (and usually hold them outside of busy times) are being inconsiderate or disruptive.
Absolutely. Riding 3 abreast just doesn't happen in a TT, if it did the riders would be overtaking each other. If it was a TTT (3 rider team event) it is normal to be inline. It's obvious that most people who ride TT's are more than 'recreational' cyclists and they would probably a. have more experience and b. be more likely to respect the rules.Still I expect another anti cycling thread next week, this is PH after all.
yonex said:
Snowboy said:
I am not against recreational cycling.
I am not against sensible considerate clubs.
I am against dangerous, inconsiderate and disruptive clubs abusing the roads.
Glad we've cleared that up I am not against sensible considerate clubs.
I am against dangerous, inconsiderate and disruptive clubs abusing the roads.
Basically as long as you are not inconvenienced by anyone everything's fine. It sad that cyclists have to share the roads with drivers like you really.
It turns a reasonable discussion into a stupid fight.
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