Cycle races on dual carriageways !

[Snowboy]

walm said:

I think we have a situation where one anecdote (Snowboy's anti-social club meets) is trotted out as a counterexample to a reasonable request (don't ban TTs on DCs).

Every other argument appears based on what people personally find dangerous and/or poor driving skills combined with impatience.

And while we are on the finer points of debate; nice strawman!

Clivey said one bike is worse than one piece of farm equipment. That's what I objected to.

You are claiming that overtaking with multiple bikes in both directions is worse than overtaking one tractor.
Fair enough! Not sure that it is relevant other than in your particularly rare and unfortunate example!
(And I don't mean that flippantly - it does sound pretty annoying!)

There are TT's (or similar) on a dual carriageway near me too.
I have an opinion on that too.

For the most part it's fine.
It's slightly annoying that all the slow cars are in lane 2 and they are stopping me from speeding, but it's not a situation that I have any right to complain about.

The bits that are a problem are on the slip roads and roundabouts where the cyclists join and leave the dual carriageway.
It's these points where the cyclists tend to ignore the rules and force cars to take avoiding action.
Sometimes I don't mind, they are out having fun I don't mind cutting wide or easing back to let them proceed.
But other times the traffic means it's not possible to do that, and rather than easing off themselves the cyclist will run full speed into a situation where the driver has to take evasive action.

It is almost always the junctions where the cycle events and TT's cause problems.

[walm]

will_ said:

I don't recall ever seeing anyone suggesting that there aren't rogue cyclists. There most certainly are. What is objectionable is when that is used to tar "all" cyclists or cyclists in general. That is just stupid, lazy, prejudiced, irrational, bigoted thinking - and those who do that (and there are plenty on here, sadly) probably hate anything that they don't have the capacity to understand or is "different" to them.

I had to laugh at this one Will! The irony is strong here!!

You can't make a sweeping generalisation about people who make sweeping generalisations!!

You just divided by zero - I am surprised you haven't broken the internet...

[will_]

walm said:

will_ said:

I don't recall ever seeing anyone suggesting that there aren't rogue cyclists. There most certainly are. What is objectionable is when that is used to tar "all" cyclists or cyclists in general. That is just stupid, lazy, prejudiced, irrational, bigoted thinking - and those who do that (and there are plenty on here, sadly) probably hate anything that they don't have the capacity to understand or is "different" to them.

I had to laugh at this one Will! The irony is strong here!!

You can't make a sweeping generalisation about people who make sweeping generalisations!!

You just divided by zero - I am surprised you haven't broken the internet...

Oi - I used the word "probably".

Do you think I'm wrong?

It's "probably" true. More so that "I saw a cyclist run a red light, ALL cyclists break the law all the time."

[walm]

Snowboy said:

It is almost always the junctions where the cycle events and TT's cause problems.

I am sure you are right about that.

Do you know which roads have the fewest junctions per mile....?

[Clivey]

Wow...quite a few of posts this morning: I'll reply in order.

will_ said:

Whilst you make some fair points, I think that the point being made was that (a) the overall externalities of car use are much greater than those of using bicycles and (b) the cars are likely, at some stage, to be sitting in a jam and it's unlikely to be a jam made up of thousands of bicycles each taking up 4 square metres of tarmac.

That's as may be unless many more people do take-up cycling...however, thankfully we don't have to justify our choice of vehicle (as long as it's legal) to others. It's just that certain roads, due to their character, are unsuitable for certain types of vehicle. That's why I don't take my 3-Series green laning.

I'm not saying "Don't cycle" or "I hate cyclists" etc. - just that it's in everybody's interest for vehicles to be used on appropriate types of road.

will_ said:

The daft thing about these "cycling debates" is that if people could be encouraged out of their cars and onto bikes for short, urban journeys there would be less traffic, less polution and "safety in numbers" for cyclists. It's only lazyness and fear (ironically, of cars) that stops people doing so.

I mostly agree but additional factors may also include: time, carrying things, inability to cycle due to illness / old age, needing the vehicle with you for later in the day and taking the vehicle itself to get work done.

I'm not advocating poor driving either - I'm frequently disappointed in the standards shown by others and I'm all for retesting etc. etc. - but even with the best cyclists and drivers, on a dual carriageway similar in character to the A50, you don't need special powers to see the problems.

walm said:

As already pointed out, the TTs are held at QUIET times (hint: not Monday 830am!) - apparently they even do some sort of formal analysis on traffic density before permitting them.

We're now talking about two different things. - The comments of mine that you quoted was regarding a single cyclist. I've never had a problem with TTs but then I've never come across one on a road like the A50 (yes; I realise that was the original subject).

walm said:

Secondly it is better than tractors because a short thin obstacle is easier to overtake owing to both visibility and, well, shorter = less time in lane 2.

So unless the laws of physics have changed you are completely wrong.

On the negative side (from an overtaker's point of view), the cyclist will likely be going slower and will, at busy times, cause more of a bottleneck. Last night, I was on my way to the hospital on an urban DC. Stopped at traffic lights, 2 cyclists moved to the front of the queue (the cycle lane ended prior to the junction and there were no special provisions for cyclists). As the lights changed, the cyclists set off at the front and it took quite a while for the motor vehicles (including myself) in lane one to get past because everyone was being considerate to the cyclists and didn't "buzz" them. At least a tractor would've been quicker and that's much less of a pain when you can't overtake for some reason. Now this was, as I said, an urban DC so the cyclists weren't a "problem", but on the A50, they would have been in busy traffic.

[heebeegeetee]

Clivey said:

Anyway, I would argue that a car driving down the A50 (the road originally under discussion) has much less impact on everybody else as unless the driver isn't up to par, generally it'll be keeping pace with the rest of the traffic. Even the fastest cyclist will still be going a considerable amount slower than 99% of other traffic and part of the "problem" is caused by this speed differential. The reason motor vehicles typically aren't allowed to do 56 or 70 mph through a town centre is because of the risks this will typically involve. - What's the point in building a road designed for fast traffic only to permit the same risks and rolling road blocks? Surely we're all adults here and can see that the A50 is basically a small Motorway in reality?

As I have said before, I am a cyclist, driver, pedestrian etc. and on balance consider cycling down the A50 an unreasonable thing to do. A cyclist will cause traffic problems, especially at busy times, because they essentially remove a lane and force the other traffic to bunch up and slow right down - bearing in mind this is a fast road, it's as inconsiderate as anyone that trundles along in slow moving building / farm equipment at 08:30 on a Monday morning. It's as if some relish "sticking it" to drivers, "making them avoid me" etc. - It's not a challenge to see how many obstacles you can throw in someone's way before they make a mistake and hit one. That's why you don't muck about with a dinghy in a busy shipping lane and why bored teenagers playing chicken in traffic is also unacceptable. What's next, a flock of sheep?

Look, surely this line of thinking only works if you live in a vacuum, or are blind, or something?

The A50 (or part of A50 that I was familiar with a few years back) will be the same as every other dc in urban or inter-urban areas, in that it will grind to a halt at every roundabout along it's route, twice a day at least, and the grinding to a halt will be done by cars. The people who are using this road and block it off twice a day will think they are doing nothing wrong, but clearly, as you show, they do think that it is inconsiderate for others to cycle along it. In other words, those who think nothing of blocking the road off with their cars will think that the road users who don't block the road off should not be using that road.

The A50 past Uttoxter and Doveridge etc was only built because of the blight to local towns and villages caused by traffic, of which cyclists can not play any measurable part that I can think of. In somebody's wisdom the A50 was made with concrete, which creates terrific road roar and for years afterwards local villagers had signs up pleading to the dept. of Transport to resurface this new road because of noise pollution. I don't know if this has yet been done or not, but amongst all this blight, what part do cyclists play?

So, local towns and villages were/are blighted by traffic, noise, pollution etc and the people who do this, the car drivers, think it is inconsiderate for cyclists to use the road.

There are many miles of dc in my neck of the woods, and thanks to the never-ending increase in numbers of cars on the roads, the road works and junction improvements simply never stop. All the time junctions get ever wider, with ever more lanes and sets of lights, and they work fine for about 12 months before they need 'improving' again.

If there is a TT taking part on a dc, just move into L2 and let them get on with it. Yes, you will be inconvenienced for a minute maybe, but you yourself and ourselves are already causing enormous delay, cost and inconvenience just by putting a car on the road.

I think as car drivers we have to take an extraordinarily blinkered view to conclude that anyone else is anywhere near as much of a nuisance as we are.

[will_]

Clivey said:

I'm not saying "Don't cycle" or "I hate cyclists" etc. - just that it's in everybody's interest for vehicles to be used on appropriate types of road.

I can't see how a DC isn't really appropriate - one lane for the bikes, one lane for the cars. Surely that's much less inconvenient than having a single carriageway road being used?

I suppose it does depend on the time of day and volume of traffic, but as others have posted apparently this is taken into consideration when organising these events.

Other peoples' hobbies often have a negative impact on those not participating, whether that be motor racing, shooting, the London Marathon. I can't see any particular reason for singling out a cycling event from many other recreational activities.

[Snowboy]

will_ said:

-snip-

I suppose it does depend on the time of day and volume of traffic, but as others have posted apparently this is taken into consideration when organising these events.

-snip-

Just like when the Custom Corsa Crew hold their club events around the local city centre when the volume of traffic is light so their recreational activities and bending of a few laws bother fewer other road users.

[anonymous-user]

So back on topic I had a good TT last night. On the ride there a prat in a Range Rover thought he show me how big his dick was by giving me little room despite the road being clear, some people, you cant save them.

Started out at 7:04 some traffic but not that bad. First roundabout was clear with the usual marshal on the roundabout. A couple of cars pulled out ahead and I was quite lucky they turned off as I was catching them pretty quickly. Pushed pretty hard in the middle sector some cars overtook me in the NSL part, lots of room and got a wave from some kids in the back of one of the cars, always nice Truck came past and gave me a little tow, stank though! At the second roundabout I saw some traffic so backed off and let them through early, thought that a waiting car was going to pull out but he sat there, no dramas. The return leg was tough, head wind all the way back and everything was burning. At 8 miles I was starting to run out of fuel, watching the power as 300w was starting to fail, swapping cadence around didn't help, there wasn't much left. Traffic was pretty light just a few out on the roads really, the sun was low, clear skies just a great evening. The last mile was all about visualizing the finish line and digging in. The familiar taste of blood and short intakes of breath brought me up to the line. Thank fk that was over. Flicked the Garmin screens and 22:40, a minute faster than my awful ride last week.

Not quite a PB but 25 secs off of one this early in the season was pretty decent. 4th overall.

In summary nobody really cared about the local TT event and all of you whining in here weren't inconvenienced. In the great scheme of things it really isn't worth worrying about. Later that evening I got in my car and went for a curry and a few beers. The sum total of my efforts is a much happier me today which is going to make everyone at the office happier.

This cycling lark, there's something in it.

Perhaps some of you could ask yourselves why you are getting so pissed off, we are all the same really when you boil it down.

Anyway. Carry on

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 16th April 11:49

[WinstonWolf]

St John Smythe said:

Clivey said:

yellowjack said:

laughing their tits off every time they glimpse the thousands of stranded halfwits on the A338.

That last comment is quite revealing.

It's actually quite ironic as the vast majority of cyclists you see out and about on weekends actually do have tits due to them being overweight and middle aged

I'll be fifty next birthday so I may qualify to answer that.

Fancy your chances Sonny?

[paranoid airbag]

Johnnytheboy said:

There you go again, hurling insults round at the first opportunity, and extra points for the old trick of accusing someone of saying something they didn't (riding two abreast is illegal) then feigning outrage.

When will the PH cyclist minority learn to debate like grown-ups rather than just chucking condescension and abuse at anyone that dares to disagree with them? Actually, no, keep it up, because I don't think it does your views any favours.

I never said that anyone said that. Hence "for example".

Learn to read, dingbat.

[paranoid airbag]

xRIEx said:

To be fair, that response isn't an example of taking the maturity high ground.

Oh I'm sorry, I missed the part where you listened more to the people taking the high ground.

[heebeegeetee]

Johnnytheboy said:

When will the PH cyclist minority learn to debate like grown-ups rather than just chucking condescension and abuse at anyone that dares to disagree with them? .

Probably when PH's drivers stop reflecting *exactly* the sort of comment and knowledge you'd expect to see on Mumsnet or The Wail.

paranoid airbag said:

Oh I'm sorry, I missed the part where you listened more to the people taking the high ground.

You'll need a mountain bike for that.

[Tomalawk]

This is a st storm. On a side note I'm thinking about setting up some time trails on A50 for cars. The aim of the game is to accelerate to 70mph then brake to 50mph then back up to 70mph constantly, overtaking is allowed and no fuel breaks can be taken. The idea is to prove how good our cars are. If you want to complain then I couldn't give a st about what other people think or whether it's a stupid idea because I want to do what I want to do and that's all that matters, fk the rest of the world. (All participants must wear Lycra and shave legs, I will be checking)

[paranoid airbag]

Tomalawk said:

This is a st storm. On a side note I'm thinking about setting up some time trails on A50 for cars. The aim of the game is to accelerate to 70mph then brake to 50mph then back up to 70mph constantly, overtaking is allowed and no fuel breaks can be taken. The idea is to prove how good our cars are. If you want to complain then I couldn't give a st about what other people think or whether it's a stupid idea because I want to do what I want to do and that's all that matters, fk the rest of the world. (All participants must wear Lycra and shave legs, I will be checking)

Can I join? It sounds fun. I've never shaved my legs before*, but I'll make an exception....

* 'Cept the stag do (not mine) in birmingham of course

[Tomalawk]

paranoid airbag said:

Can I join? It sounds fun. I've never shaved my legs before*, but I'll make an exception....

* 'Cept the stag do (not mine) in birmingham of course

Sure Paranoid! I'd invite Will and Walm as well but I think they'll still be at the doctors after getting veet hair removal cream on their bks by accident.

[jimbop1]

will_ said:

What?

I wasn't expecting anything remotely structured or rational, but basic English would be a start.

Obviously the connection between the bicycle and the motorbicycle (the clue is there if you look really hard enough) is well over your head.

Edited by will_ on Wednesday 16th April 09:17

I've told you before.. I get shouted at by cyclists for calling cyclists, cyclists. So I've changed the word to try and make them/you abit happier. It's the least I could do to calm the anger of 'cyclists'.

[Tomalawk]

will_ said:

I can't see how a DC isn't really appropriate - one lane for the bikes, one lane for the cars. Surely that's much less inconvenient than having a single carriageway road being used?

I suppose it does depend on the time of day and volume of traffic, but as others have posted apparently this is taken into consideration when organising these events.

Other peoples' hobbies often have a negative impact on those not participating, whether that be motor racing, shooting, the London Marathon. I can't see any particular reason for singling out a cycling event from many other recreational activities.

Yeah I know what you mean, I'm frequently dodging bullets and Formula 3 cars on the A50.

[heebeegeetee]

Tomalawk said:

This is a st storm. On a side note I'm thinking about setting up some time trails on A50 for cars. The aim of the game is to accelerate to 70mph then brake to 50mph then back up to 70mph constantly, overtaking is allowed and no fuel breaks can be taken. The idea is to prove how good our cars are. If you want to complain then I couldn't give a st about what other people think or whether it's a stupid idea because I want to do what I want to do and that's all that matters, fk the rest of the world. (All participants must wear Lycra and shave legs, I will be checking)

There are car clubs in the larger surrounding area of the A50 that participate in many time trials for cars, known as road rallies. There is a brilliant championship going on http://www.emamc.org.uk/road_rally/index.shtml, and these events, like time trials for cycles, have been going on for decades. They are absolutely brilliant fun.

Road rallies do of course cause some inconvenience to residents, and they can't take place without the co-operation of residents and police authorities - but then again nothing takes place without inconveniencing somebody and we all have to give allowances to each other or we'd get nothing done.

The ban-everything brigade are a problem of course - I have no idea what sort of society these tiny-minded people want, where nobody can do anything, and as for people who move into the countryside or into another area and then set about getting long-standing activities stopped - words fail me.

Having said that, i can't imagine that motorsport will appeal to those who find overtaking cyclists difficult.

[will_]

Tomalawk said:

Sure Paranoid! I'd invite Will and Walm as well but I think they'll still be at the doctors after getting veet hair removal cream on their bks by accident.

Don't worry about Walm and I - we're pretty good at it now and we like it anyway!