Diesel backlash
Discussion
ORD said:
I get the point that most car buyers dont think very deeply about the total cost of running a car, but how on Earth was anyone ever persuaded that diesel was the way to go for economy and/or the environment?
The current generation of highly complex diesels are still very polluting (in the ways that matter), do not actually get great MPG in the real world and will be worth naff all once the turbos or injectors give up (making them, in the long term, not very good value as hardware).
I'm not impressed by the efficiency of the small turbo diesels and petrols. Real world mpg is almost always around 45-50, so you spend 2/3 as much as you would if you drove something with a 3 litre petrol engine and actually enjoyed your driving. I exaggerate, but it is hardly like these things are getting 70mpg and actually saving anyone money (once you take into account purchase costs, etc).
The simple answer is that "The current generation of highly complex diesels" didn't previously exist.The current generation of highly complex diesels are still very polluting (in the ways that matter), do not actually get great MPG in the real world and will be worth naff all once the turbos or injectors give up (making them, in the long term, not very good value as hardware).
I'm not impressed by the efficiency of the small turbo diesels and petrols. Real world mpg is almost always around 45-50, so you spend 2/3 as much as you would if you drove something with a 3 litre petrol engine and actually enjoyed your driving. I exaggerate, but it is hardly like these things are getting 70mpg and actually saving anyone money (once you take into account purchase costs, etc).
mygoldfishbowl said:
It's not only vehicles. Aircraft engines & office air conditioning also play a big part in air pollution in cities as well.
In the bigger picture, what about Ships, pretty sure I read somewhere that these emitted far more emissions on a worldwide basis?Or, is it drivel?
otolith said:
heebeegeetee said:
What has diesel got to do with the smog?
Oxides of nitrogen would be the main thing, not particulates. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/jul/08...
There must be more diesel cars in use in Europe, how is that we are suffering problems caused by diesel cars more than they are?
heebeegeetee said:
The simple answer is that "The current generation of highly complex diesels" didn't previously exist.
This.The old XUD9 1905 cc engine would cover big mileages and when installed in a light car worked well. Wouldn't get through the smog test nowadays I guess?
Diesel power will eat itself eventually. More and more low mileage failures and massively complex and expensive to repair. 1.4L engines are now pushed to 1.8 levels of output, something has to give eventually.
yonex said:
heebeegeetee said:
The simple answer is that "The current generation of highly complex diesels" didn't previously exist.
This.The old XUD9 1905 cc engine would cover big mileages and when installed in a light car worked well. Wouldn't get through the smog test nowadays I guess?
Diesel power will eat itself eventually. More and more low mileage failures and massively complex and expensive to repair. 1.4L engines are now pushed to 1.8 levels of output, something has to give eventually.
With DPF's becoming prevalent due to emissions, a lot of buyers still seem to think a diesel is suitable as a runaround for short journeys, when in reality the DPF never gets hot enough to do it's job properly. End result, DPF clogs up present they owner with a hefty bill.
Vladimir said:
Can't have a petrol van so no choice in that one.
Yes you can
Ford offer it with a 4.6L V8, 5.4L V8 or a 6.8L V10... all petrol
http://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/eseries-carg...
heebeegeetee said:
There must be more diesel cars in use in Europe, how is that we are suffering problems caused by diesel cars more than they are?
Are we though?edit - no, we aren't, it's a problem in all of the highly populated areas of Europe.
http://www.eea.europa.eu/publications/air-quality-...
Map on page 60.
Edited by otolith on Tuesday 15th April 10:17
10 Pence Short said:
heebeegeetee said:
There must be more diesel cars in use in Europe, how is that we are suffering problems caused by diesel cars more than they are?
I would imagine (in England at least) our population density is much greater than most other regions of the EU.
ks, and even if it is diesels I doubt it's too much to do with cars. The press will push this agenda on the governments behalf: what you will see is a curtailment of your freedom to use private transport, increased taxation and lowered speed limits. Some will laugh at my tinfoil hat, but this is what is happening.
As to all the PH-bandwagon-"let's hate diesels to fit in" types....
"First they came for the diesel engined cars, but I said nothing because I had no diesel engined car...."
You're next!
Well I drive a diesel and I'd be happy for diesel cars to be wiped off the planet and leave it to the reserve of tractors, boats, generators etc.
From what I read even in modern engines, diesel still pumps out some nasty nasty toxins and there is no doubt that the number of 'family cars' running on the stuff has definitely sky rocketed in recent years.
I also go by my nose. It smells very wrong and toxic and at the end of the day, decisions made have put money put higher up the scale than people's health.
From what I read even in modern engines, diesel still pumps out some nasty nasty toxins and there is no doubt that the number of 'family cars' running on the stuff has definitely sky rocketed in recent years.
I also go by my nose. It smells very wrong and toxic and at the end of the day, decisions made have put money put higher up the scale than people's health.
Dog Star said:
Personally I think all this is a load of old bks, and even if it is diesels I doubt it's too much to do with cars.
The press will push this agenda on the governments behalf: what you will see is a curtailment of your freedom to use private transport, increased taxation and lowered speed limits. Some will laugh at my tinfoil hat, but this is what is happening.
As to all the PH-bandwagon-"let's hate diesels to fit in" types....
"First they came for the diesel engined cars, but I said nothing because I had no diesel engined car...."
You're next!
Whether or not it's down to private motoring or not I'm not sure, but there seems little doubt that air quality is unsatisfactory in many urban areas. It doesn't, to me, sound too controversial to suggest vehicles contribute towards this in some way.ks, and even if it is diesels I doubt it's too much to do with cars. The press will push this agenda on the governments behalf: what you will see is a curtailment of your freedom to use private transport, increased taxation and lowered speed limits. Some will laugh at my tinfoil hat, but this is what is happening.
As to all the PH-bandwagon-"let's hate diesels to fit in" types....
"First they came for the diesel engined cars, but I said nothing because I had no diesel engined car...."
You're next!
As for our freedom to use private transport, we've never really enjoyed an unfettered right to use the roads in our cars. We are given a license to use them with many conditions attached.
There is probably a balance to be struck between the benefit driving around in our cars gives us, against the harm doing so causes society as a whole. Whilst I love cars and motoring, I don't do so thinking I'd happily see my own or my children's health suffer to maintain that 'right'.
Anyone seen to be removing our individual freedoms in return for what appears an almost intangible day to day benefit is going to face strong resistance and criticism. That doesn't mean they are wrong to do it, though.
AW111 said:
So how do all the people that skite about their de-catted and re-mapped cars feel about this?
Many remapped diesels run pig rich and smoky on boost, and decats, by definition, remove the cat that cleans up a lot of tailpipe nasties.
And then there's the DPF removal crowd too...
Apparently given a choice we'd all be running around with humongous big petrols and it's only the price of fuel that stops us from doing so, so I don't think any of us cares about air quality tbh.Many remapped diesels run pig rich and smoky on boost, and decats, by definition, remove the cat that cleans up a lot of tailpipe nasties.
And then there's the DPF removal crowd too...
The government creates the conditions that incentivise people to buy diesel cars - the CO2-based taxation system and sky-high fuel taxes.
If, say, a NOx-based VED system was introduced then diesels would be taxed more highly and people would transfer back to petrol.
People focus on the money they can see leaving their pockets - fuel costs - and not other costs such as depreciation and mechanical repairs...
I guess diesels will become less popular as they become incresingly complex and unreliable, particularly as DPF failures cause more issues for low-mileage drivers. It will take time for this message to filter through.
The ultimate problem in the UK is that in the last 20-30 years or so everyone has become totally car-dependent, drive everywhere no matter how short the journey, and as the population increases this overcrowded little country just runs out of space for more cars. It's bad enough now and will only get worse.
If, say, a NOx-based VED system was introduced then diesels would be taxed more highly and people would transfer back to petrol.
People focus on the money they can see leaving their pockets - fuel costs - and not other costs such as depreciation and mechanical repairs...
I guess diesels will become less popular as they become incresingly complex and unreliable, particularly as DPF failures cause more issues for low-mileage drivers. It will take time for this message to filter through.
The ultimate problem in the UK is that in the last 20-30 years or so everyone has become totally car-dependent, drive everywhere no matter how short the journey, and as the population increases this overcrowded little country just runs out of space for more cars. It's bad enough now and will only get worse.
As mentioned the government has created a incentive for them, hence they sell.
Also when they work they are pretty good on fuel. Also good.
However modern diesels (of all sizes) with emissions control systems and DPF's are not the reliable workhorses people would normally associate with a diesel. They are technology ridden maintenance heavy bits of kit that will bite you in the backside with the slightest hint of neglect and certainly are not for everyone. Especially if you don't do enough miles to claw back the costs of owning one in the first place. Simple maths really.
I think there is a fair bit of movement to the tce/ecoboost style of petrol engine now as an alternative but these also have various questions to answer with long term reliability. Modern petrol engines are not free of various emissions systems to hamper reliability.
As for people caring what comes out the back of it I doubt many people care or are even aware.
Main problem is there are too many people/cars in the country/world.
Also when they work they are pretty good on fuel. Also good.
However modern diesels (of all sizes) with emissions control systems and DPF's are not the reliable workhorses people would normally associate with a diesel. They are technology ridden maintenance heavy bits of kit that will bite you in the backside with the slightest hint of neglect and certainly are not for everyone. Especially if you don't do enough miles to claw back the costs of owning one in the first place. Simple maths really.
I think there is a fair bit of movement to the tce/ecoboost style of petrol engine now as an alternative but these also have various questions to answer with long term reliability. Modern petrol engines are not free of various emissions systems to hamper reliability.
As for people caring what comes out the back of it I doubt many people care or are even aware.
Main problem is there are too many people/cars in the country/world.
bungz said:
Main problem is there are too many people/cars in the country/world.
So regardless of how green we are, long term the population increase will be the demise of us. We just can't sustain the increase levels we have now.
Leon19841 said:
This!! funny how little this is addressed isn't it! Lets face it, between the food we have to consume, packaging, energy, fuel, cars etc you could be the most green obsessed carbon aware person on the planet and you wouldn't be carbon neutral in the god knows how many years you will live (this is increasing all the time don't forget)
So regardless of how green we are, long term the population increase will be the demise of us. We just can't sustain the increase levels we have now.
+1. Uncontrolled population growth is the elephant in the room and will be the death of us all...So regardless of how green we are, long term the population increase will be the demise of us. We just can't sustain the increase levels we have now.
I've just swapped from Diesel back to Petrol - the first time in 7 years I've had a petrol car.
When I sat down and worked out the running costs, together with the higher cost of purchase, it made no sense to go with a Diesel again. Given I tend to keep my car for about 5 years or so, it was a no brainer.
As for curtailment of the use of private cars, that is not going to happen - it would be political suicide. The only way that could happen, is if public transport was made publicly owned again, and not run purely for profit.
If I was to get to work on the bus, a distance of 12 miles, it would take 2 buses, and close to 3 hours to get there, assuming the bus turns up on time, which cannot be relied on, compared with 30mins including battling the M60 each morning. It would cost me no less than running my car (given that it would be maintained, taxed and insured anyway)
When I sat down and worked out the running costs, together with the higher cost of purchase, it made no sense to go with a Diesel again. Given I tend to keep my car for about 5 years or so, it was a no brainer.
As for curtailment of the use of private cars, that is not going to happen - it would be political suicide. The only way that could happen, is if public transport was made publicly owned again, and not run purely for profit.
If I was to get to work on the bus, a distance of 12 miles, it would take 2 buses, and close to 3 hours to get there, assuming the bus turns up on time, which cannot be relied on, compared with 30mins including battling the M60 each morning. It would cost me no less than running my car (given that it would be maintained, taxed and insured anyway)
There is a lack of understanding in the buying public about what the consumer gets into when buying a vehicle, whether it is diesel or petrol.
The emphasis for the past 12 years has been on CO2 derived VED which (wrongly) drives consumers towards buying vehicles which cost them less in yearly tax.
There is a fundamental gulf in understanding of running costs between the different cars based on mileage covered in an average journey. The emissions equipment required for a diesel (some of which will transfer to petrols in the next 5 years) does not suit short-distance cold commutes. As such, consumers continue to buy the vehicle with the best sticker CO2 on it and there is largely very little understanding around the secondary running costs.
That is not to say that petrols will be much better in the longer term. Particulate filters are standard fit on diesels now, but it won't be long before the same happens on petrol engines. Once one manufacturer has to take the plunge, they all will or they will be legislated out of the park. The only saving grace there is that it is far easier to chuck heat into a petrol emissions system than it is a diesel one so short journeys ought to still be less of a problem than with diesel - particularly with the trend towards downsizing and dethrottling.
There is nothing new here, but the issue lies with the consumer - not the manufacturers. The OEMs make cars which pass the required legislation for the market they are sold in. If the consumer sees fit to buy a car which fundamentally does not match their requirements who is the fool?
Long and short of it is that there is no case for punishing diesel buyers through taxation, particularly when it will hurt public transport and haulage far more than it will individual consumers.
Engines are getting more complex to meet the emissions requirements set out by various governing bodies. It's the right step to take and it will benefit the consumer if they buy the right type of vehicle. But that is where the problem lies, it cannot be levelled anywhere else in my view.
The emphasis for the past 12 years has been on CO2 derived VED which (wrongly) drives consumers towards buying vehicles which cost them less in yearly tax.
There is a fundamental gulf in understanding of running costs between the different cars based on mileage covered in an average journey. The emissions equipment required for a diesel (some of which will transfer to petrols in the next 5 years) does not suit short-distance cold commutes. As such, consumers continue to buy the vehicle with the best sticker CO2 on it and there is largely very little understanding around the secondary running costs.
That is not to say that petrols will be much better in the longer term. Particulate filters are standard fit on diesels now, but it won't be long before the same happens on petrol engines. Once one manufacturer has to take the plunge, they all will or they will be legislated out of the park. The only saving grace there is that it is far easier to chuck heat into a petrol emissions system than it is a diesel one so short journeys ought to still be less of a problem than with diesel - particularly with the trend towards downsizing and dethrottling.
There is nothing new here, but the issue lies with the consumer - not the manufacturers. The OEMs make cars which pass the required legislation for the market they are sold in. If the consumer sees fit to buy a car which fundamentally does not match their requirements who is the fool?
Long and short of it is that there is no case for punishing diesel buyers through taxation, particularly when it will hurt public transport and haulage far more than it will individual consumers.
Engines are getting more complex to meet the emissions requirements set out by various governing bodies. It's the right step to take and it will benefit the consumer if they buy the right type of vehicle. But that is where the problem lies, it cannot be levelled anywhere else in my view.
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