RE: Discovery Vision Concept revealed by Land Rover

[skyrover]

NomduJour said:

Essential for a specific degree of off-road ability which is really only a concern for the leisure market in the US. Vast majority of commercial users don't need it (witnessed by how they all now use Japanese pick-ups with IFS). Road manners are way more important than a final degree of articulation (buts it must be as capable as the current Defender).

True... but the Defender is marketed as the ultimate offroader, it needs those axles to meet that boast.

[NomduJour]

I'll wager quite a lot it isn't going to get them (and the bloke in that Toyota could just have driven around that rock).

[IroningMan]

skyrover said:

The difference is not tiny... there is a fundamental difference in the way the vehicle behaves





As you can see... the vehicle underneath has much more traction.

Granted that's a great illustration, but that's not a standard factory live axle setup, is it?

Demand for factory builds with that kind of ability is vanishingly small - except perhaps in markets where it needs to go hand-in-hand with something a bit more impressive than a 2.2 litre van engine...

[skyrover]

IroningMan said:

Granted that's a great illustration, but that's not a standard factory live axle setup, is it?

Yes it is... springs and shocks might be different

IroningMan said:

Demand for factory builds with that kind of ability is vanishingly small - except perhaps in markets where it needs to go hand-in-hand with something a bit more impressive than a 2.2 litre van engine...

The demand is there, yes it's not something your average Joe will make use of but the market does exist.

The capability is important in the same way your 200mph super car has the prestige despite the fact most of the public will never fully exploit it's capabilities.

[unrepentant]

skyrover said:

Solid axles are essential for off-road capability, they have mulled over removing them in the next wrangler for fuel economy reasons, but unless they switch to trick air suspension I very much doubt it will happen due to backlash from the huge US off-roading community.

My buddy has pics somewhere of an L405 rescue towing a Defender that had got bogged down off road in Utah at the launch....

We have a huge off road park near us where we take LR owners. The majority of people that use it for the hardcore stuff use purpose built ROV's, Polaris type vehicles or old Wranglers with heavily modified suspensions. The number of people who buy new SUV's for extreme off roading is a fraction of a fraction of a percent, even here. I've driven the new Sport off road in N Carolina and it was fantastic, totally capable, way way more than the vast majority of owners will ever need.

Cars have to be lighter and more fuel efficeient to meet government regulations. That's just a fact.

[skyrover]

unrepentant said:

Cars have to be lighter and more fuel efficeient to meet government regulations. That's just a fact.

yes, but that does not mean we have to pretend to ourselves that we are "improving" a product.

It is in fact being compromised to meet artificial targets.

[unrepentant]

skyrover said:

unrepentant said:

Cars have to be lighter and more fuel efficeient to meet government regulations. That's just a fact.

yes, but that does not mean we have to pretend to ourselves that we are "improving" a product.

It is in fact being compromised to meet artificial targets.

I completely and utterly disagree. I think the cars are being made to meet the demands of the market, something they are doing with huge unprecedented success. The use of aluminium is improving the car in a number of ways and it also helps the company to hit governmental targets that have to be hit. The added benefits of improved fuel economy, performance and cabin noise are something that buyers welcome. Add to that a myriad of technological advances and to suggest that the new cars are not an improvement over what came before is ridiculous.

[Amirhussain]

And people say German cars all look the same

[skyrover]

unrepentant said:

I completely and utterly disagree. I think the cars are being made to meet the demands of the market, something they are doing with huge unprecedented success. The use of aluminium is improving the car in a number of ways and it also helps the company to hit governmental targets that have to be hit. The added benefits of improved fuel economy, performance and cabin noise are something that buyers welcome. Add to that a myriad of technological advances and to suggest that the new cars are not an improvement over what came before is ridiculous.

It's more complicated than that... everything has it's pro's and cons, newer is not always better, change for the sake of change etc.

Land Rover must weigh up several factors such as outright capability, comfort, heritage, target market, cost, government targets/guidelines, crash safety, profit margins and brand image.

Every factor mentioned will have an effect on the end product, it's up to land rover to decide which take priority although some are non-negotiable.

If land rover decide to re-position themselves and leave behind the utility market than fine, they are chasing a larger less specific market, however the end product will by it's very nature, be fundamentally different and not necessarily "better".

[braddo]

skyrover said:

NomduJour said:

Essential for a specific degree of off-road ability which is really only a concern for the leisure market in the US. Vast majority of commercial users don't need it (witnessed by how they all now use Japanese pick-ups with IFS). Road manners are way more important than a final degree of articulation (buts it must be as capable as the current Defender).

True... but the Defender is marketed as the ultimate offroader, it needs those axles to meet that boast.

What do the latest Bowlers and Dakar racers have?

The pointless boulder hopping is a hobby (and that Landcruiser's articulation in that photo is way beyond factory ability, not to mention the front bumper/valance having been removed). How many buyers of standard Defenders need that kind of axle articulation? Maybe 1 in 10000 but that's probably an overstatement.

[skyrover]

braddo said:

What do the latest Bowlers and Dakar racers have?

Dakar Racer? the clue is in the name ... independent suspension lets you go fast over bumps, it is not optimal for steep ruts/gradients/crawling

braddo said:

The pointless boulder hopping is a hobby (and that Landcruiser's articulation in that photo is way beyond factory ability, not to mention the front bumper/valance having been removed). How many buyers of standard Defenders need that kind of axle articulation? Maybe 1 in 10000 but that's probably an overstatement.

You aren't getting it... the articulation is necessary in many cases off road and certainly if you want to sell "the ultimate offroader", whether or not you use the capability. The Defender's axle articulation is actually a major selling point as not many will match if from the factory.

I agree many drivers wont use the capability, but that does not mean the vehicle should be neutered.

[unrepentant]

skyrover said:

If land rover decide to re-position themselves and leave behind the utility market than fine, they are chasing a larger less specific market, however the end product will by it's very nature, be fundamentally different and not necessarily "better".

Land Rover is a luxury brand and has been for a very long time, they require no respositioning to that end!

Conversely the market to which you refer is a tiny niche. You are a great exponent of the "utility" aspect of the brand yet from your profile the "youngest" LR you seem to have owned is a '91 Disco? But you should be the target for new LR's?

[braddo]

skyrover said:

You aren't getting it... the articulation is necessary in many cases off road...

You think a Bowler doesn't have good enough articulation to go where a Defender can?

I don't know the answer to this by the way, but can a standard Defender go places that a D3/D4 Discovery can't (assuming it's on suitable tyres)?

[skyrover]

unrepentant said:

Land Rover is a luxury brand and has been for a very long time, they require no respositioning to that end!

Range Rover was land rover's luxury offering, the Series, Defender and discovery were lower models. You don't buy a luxury car and than proceed to abuse it.
What happened was Land Rover became lazy and found that they could not compete with cheaper, more reliable Asian competitors as they refused to improve product quality/testing.
They found that by increasing the bells and whistles on their products and riding on the strength of their brand heritage, they could appeal to a larger market and it seems, with minimal focus on improving the actual quality of the their product.
Just compare the residuals on a Discovery vs and Land Cruiser.

unrepentant said:

Conversely the market to which you refer is a tiny niche. You are a great exponent of the "utility" aspect of the brand yet from your profile the "youngest" LR you seem to have owned is a '91 Disco? But you should be the target for new LR's?

The Defender has remained largely unchanged since 1983, both to it's credit and also to land rover's discredit I have no need for a newer defender as my rebuilt truck is better than anything land rover has put out of the factory since.
Land Rover can still cater for it's traditional market while offering something for the masses, otherwise what credibility will it have left?

[mph1977]

NomduJour said:

<snip>

Moot anyway because the likelihood of anyone ordering a new Discovery like the Vision concept and havinging a "lifestyle" where they need to tow is zero. A bike rack would be pretty extreme.

Edited by NomduJour on Thursday 17th April 09:23

other than all the race car trailers, dinghys / ribs/ trailer sailers , horse boxes etc you mean ...

not to mention the the 'Authorities' users of this class of vehicle where towing major incident trailers or trailed First aid posts / exhibition units / control units etc ...

[skyrover]

braddo said:

You think a Bowler doesn't have good enough articulation to go where a Defender can?

No... not a chance, they are lowered and have limited axle articulation. The earlier range rover based ones with solid axles can be made as good as a defender with a simple suspension change and roll bar removal, but the newer independent suspension trucks are more "track" focused.

braddo said:

I don't know the answer to this by the way, but can a standard Defender go places that a D3/D4 Discovery can't (assuming it's on suitable tyres)?

Not unless it has diff locks fitted and a suspension lift.

The Disco 3 and 4 are very capable with suitable tyres, but are limited by finite ground clearance, easily damaged trim/panels, easily punctured airbag suspension, weaker cv joints/suspension arms, a lack of aftermarket parts, difficulty of repair, electronic parts which can fail without warning.

So the Disco is good for showing off to your mates now and again, but it's no work truck

[unrepentant]

skyrover said:

The Defender has remained largely unchanged since 1983, both to it's credit and also to land rover's discredit I have no need for a newer defender as my rebuilt truck is better than anything land rover has put out of the factory since.
Land Rover can still cater for it's traditional market while offering something for the masses, otherwise what credibility will it have left?

You're clearly very passionate about your 30 year old Land Rover and that's great. The world has moved on though and by any definition Land Rover is a luxury brand. Even the outgoing Freelander is a luxurious vehicle and ever since the Discovery 3 the Disco has been also. The new cars are exceptionally capable off road as Land Rover has built upon it's unique heritage to deliver a product that is great on road and off. I am sure that there is new product in the pipeline that will fulfill the "utilitarian" demand but I would argue that Land Rovers "traditional" new car market is not the same market that you think it is.

[A.J.M]

I've only ever heard of a few disco 3/4s bursting cv joints. Due to sheer abuse from the owner and the shock of having a wheel spinning at high speed landing on solid ground. Remind me how tough the joints on defenders are again?

Also the suspension air bags are protected by metal cylinders to avoid the punctured that the l323 used to suffer.

I've off roaded my D3 with suitable tyres along side defender driving mates.
Only size and not wanting to trash it keeps me from some of the trails.
It's every bit as capable as a defender but at the end of the day, I can set the cruise to 70, adjust the heating just so and hoovers the miles up in a way a defender simply can't do.

I like both. But they are totally different cars for different markets.

[skyrover]

A.J.M said:

I've only ever heard of a few disco 3/4s bursting cv joints. Due to sheer abuse from the owner and the shock of having a wheel spinning at high speed landing on solid ground. Remind me how tough the joints on defenders are again?

Stock defender joints are pretty crap, but easily and cheaply upgraded

A.J.M said:

Also the suspension air bags are protected by metal cylinders to avoid the punctured that the l323 used to suffer.

Good to hear... are the ride height sensors protected as well?

A.J.M said:

I've off roaded my D3 with suitable tyres along side defender driving mates.
Only size and not wanting to trash it keeps me from some of the trails.

Depends largely where you off road and how often... the disco is perfectly capable of the occasional mild offroading

A.J.M said:

It's every bit as capable as a defender

It is... and it isn't. You admit yourself you avoid being too rough with it because of repair costs. This is one of the defenders major "capabilities", ease/cost of repair.

A.J.M said:

but at the end of the day, I can set the cruise to 70, adjust the heating just so and hoovers the miles up in a way a defender simply can't do.

yes... one thing the next defender should definitely address.

A.J.M said:

I like both. But they are totally different cars for different markets.

yup

[A.J.M]

Stock defines joints are legendary for being crap, all my mates carry spares to swap out in the field.
My joints have never needed anything.

The D3 doesn't go down stuff as it's still to me an expensive car and is also my daily driver. So it is kept away from some tracks purely for that. That's not to say I'm gentle with it. I have a reputation for following defenders around courses and I don't shy away from a challenge..

Give them a few years and they will be used more off road.

The height sensors are reasonably protected. I've not damaged mine and I'm not known for being gentle on it.

The next defender really needs better on road manners, it has to be more comfortable to drive and munch the miles better.

The disco is a family 4x4, it's a proper jack of all trades and a master of them too.

I like this new vision, it suits the family face that LR have currently and it will still be a good family car and also a decent off roader. Although that front bumper is sitting a bit low for my liking.