RE: Discovery Vision Concept revealed by Land Rover
Discussion
Evo said:
rhinochopig said:
Take note Porsche / Bentley, this is how to design a sophisticated looking off-roader. Shoehorning a saloon / sportscar aesthetic onto a 4x4 simply doesn't work.
Oh yes it does, I don't want to be able to drive up the south downs, I do want to be able to drive through a foot of water.What I do want is a 4x4 that handles well and goes like stink, which is why we're buying a Porsche Macan.
Different strokes for different folks but the Porsche ethos suits our needs better, Jaguar et Landrover are on a nice roll so I think it'll be a great car when it comes out.
A.J.M said:
Stock defines joints are legendary for being crap, all my mates carry spares to swap out in the field.
My joints have never needed anything.
The D3 doesn't go down stuff as it's still to me an expensive car and is also my daily driver. So it is kept away from some tracks purely for that. That's not to say I'm gentle with it. I have a reputation for following defenders around courses and I don't shy away from a challenge..
Give them a few years and they will be used more off road.
The height sensors are reasonably protected. I've not damaged mine and I'm not known for being gentle on it.
The next defender really needs better on road manners, it has to be more comfortable to drive and munch the miles better.
The disco is a family 4x4, it's a proper jack of all trades and a master of them too.
I like this new vision, it suits the family face that LR have currently and it will still be a good family car and also a decent off roader. Although that front bumper is sitting a bit low for my liking.
You need to post a couple of Team Luxury videos, just to show how “gentle“ you are with it... My joints have never needed anything.
The D3 doesn't go down stuff as it's still to me an expensive car and is also my daily driver. So it is kept away from some tracks purely for that. That's not to say I'm gentle with it. I have a reputation for following defenders around courses and I don't shy away from a challenge..
Give them a few years and they will be used more off road.
The height sensors are reasonably protected. I've not damaged mine and I'm not known for being gentle on it.
The next defender really needs better on road manners, it has to be more comfortable to drive and munch the miles better.
The disco is a family 4x4, it's a proper jack of all trades and a master of them too.
I like this new vision, it suits the family face that LR have currently and it will still be a good family car and also a decent off roader. Although that front bumper is sitting a bit low for my liking.
I realise the economic realities - that most new LR products are bought as "Mall Roamers" and rarely tackle anything more challenging than climbing the pavement - but for a fan of Landies (old and new), it's concerning to see the direction they're taking.
I don't doubt the capability of vehicles like the Disco 4 and L405 Range Rover...but when you start making 2WD models and omitting low range 'boxes as standard equipment on vehicles that have always had them, alarm bells do start to ring.
I really hope that LR can put the question of reliability to bed once and for all with their new cars. - I would gladly give-up some of the luxury and toys just so that LR could spend more on quality control, then I wouldn't have to worry about having my adventure / holiday / trip etc. ruined. - It's fine having all the latest gadgets to make off-tarmac easy even for beginners but it's no good whatsoever if something critical breaks and leaves you stranded (on or off road!). - At least the old Land Rovers could, most of the time, be coaxed back into running with basic tools after an accident or failure.
Another related "problem" for anyone wanting to off-road the newer models is that there are so many delicate, expensive parts "in the firing line". - I want to use my vehicle off-road but I don't want to cause £'000s worth of damage every time I do (it's just wasteful and I wouldn't want my nice car looking like a shed). There's much less to worry about with the older cars...though even with my "old" 2004 Discovery 2, I'll be removing the delicate plastic bumpers etc., storing them and fitting heavy-duty steel replacements before I tackle anything that would risk damaging the factory items.
I wish JLR success for the future but it will be a shame if they continue down the route of "fashion" products and abandon their roots.
I don't doubt the capability of vehicles like the Disco 4 and L405 Range Rover...but when you start making 2WD models and omitting low range 'boxes as standard equipment on vehicles that have always had them, alarm bells do start to ring.
I really hope that LR can put the question of reliability to bed once and for all with their new cars. - I would gladly give-up some of the luxury and toys just so that LR could spend more on quality control, then I wouldn't have to worry about having my adventure / holiday / trip etc. ruined. - It's fine having all the latest gadgets to make off-tarmac easy even for beginners but it's no good whatsoever if something critical breaks and leaves you stranded (on or off road!). - At least the old Land Rovers could, most of the time, be coaxed back into running with basic tools after an accident or failure.
Another related "problem" for anyone wanting to off-road the newer models is that there are so many delicate, expensive parts "in the firing line". - I want to use my vehicle off-road but I don't want to cause £'000s worth of damage every time I do (it's just wasteful and I wouldn't want my nice car looking like a shed). There's much less to worry about with the older cars...though even with my "old" 2004 Discovery 2, I'll be removing the delicate plastic bumpers etc., storing them and fitting heavy-duty steel replacements before I tackle anything that would risk damaging the factory items.
I wish JLR success for the future but it will be a shame if they continue down the route of "fashion" products and abandon their roots.
Clivey said:
I wish JLR success for the future but it will be a shame if they continue down the route of "fashion" products and abandon their roots.
Sticking to their roots by building semi-car semi-tractor vehicles like the defender and making bugger all money would have lead to the death of the company.If building gin palaces for the rich is how they can keep the company turning over, so be it. It's better for the UK that way than for the company to wither on the vine.
CraigyMc said:
Clivey said:
I wish JLR success for the future but it will be a shame if they continue down the route of "fashion" products and abandon their roots.
Sticking to their roots by building semi-car semi-tractor vehicles like the defender and making bugger all money would have lead to the death of the company.If building gin palaces for the rich is how they can keep the company turning over, so be it. It's better for the UK that way than for the company to wither on the vine.
People who want to go extreme mud plugging don't buy new cars anyway. If any company used that demographic as a basis for how they designed their cars they would go bust in a hurry.
As to "roots", that is a joke anyway. The Range Rover has been with us for 44 years and has been ultra luxury for most of it. The cars that followed have become progresively more luxurious because THAT'S WHAT THE MARKET WANTS. Having said that they are still ultra capable off road for those that want to do that. We take customers off road twice a year. Most turn up in older cars but we get people in 2 year old Sports and Disco 4's. We take current cars and all are perfectly capable.
CraigyMc said:
Sticking to their roots by building semi-car semi-tractor vehicles like the defender and making bugger all money would have lead to the death of the company.
Tell me; how does Toyota, the second largest car maker in the world, justify making the Land Cruiser 70 Series, the FJ Cruiser, the Hilux etc. etc. if they're not making money ($210,000,000,000 revenue in 2013)?Land Rover could and should reinvent the Defender for the 21st Century. - If they're as clever as they think they are, they'll create something classless, like the original, that will appeal to the Knightsbridge set as much as those that would use it for work and/or off-road.
CraigyMc said:
If building gin palaces for the rich is how they can keep the company turning over, so be it. It's better for the UK that way than for the company to wither on the vine.
I'm not saying "don't make luxury vehicles". At all. - I have Harman/Kardon, electrically-operated & leather heated seats etc. on my Discovery. I just mean that they shouldn't sacrifice the "breadth of ability" they love to talk about to go chasing orange-skinned morons. Today it's bodykits that limit capability (like the one fitted to the RRS below), tomorrow...who knows?
IroningMan said:
Toyota are probably a bit better at economies of scale than JLR...and I'd be willing to bet that a Hilux takes less than a third of the build time of a a Defender.
AFAIK the "Defender replacement" will use the same platform as the upcoming Discovery. - Hopefully this means that LR too can take advantage of economies of scale and make the damn things quicker.I'm not going to complain that they've stopped making the Defender (there were many limiting factors in it's design) as long as they build something that can do the same job without incurring massive damage.
From a design point of view I really liked the look of the Discovery 3. It struck me as one of the most interesting & functional cars out there, even if all the functionality is never used by most of its customers. I'll never own one but I like seeing them around.
This new Disco Vision is just a characterless generic blob in comparison. So boring, like so many other cars on the road and the design form not reflecting its function. I mean, what is the point of that huge, steeply raked C-pillar? What functional advantage or distinction does it bring compared to a vertical pillar (like in the Disco 3 & 4)? Ditto the positioning of the number plate, apparently just a sop to Disco heritage.
Depressing
Ali, thank you for posting the pictures below.
This new Disco Vision is just a characterless generic blob in comparison. So boring, like so many other cars on the road and the design form not reflecting its function. I mean, what is the point of that huge, steeply raked C-pillar? What functional advantage or distinction does it bring compared to a vertical pillar (like in the Disco 3 & 4)? Ditto the positioning of the number plate, apparently just a sop to Disco heritage.
Depressing
Ali, thank you for posting the pictures below.
Ali2202 said:
I really like it!
Design classic -
Looks ruined by awful lights. Especially at the back -
Nicely enough judged reinterpretation but maybe missing a bit of the original utilitarian bruiser -
Design classic -
Looks ruined by awful lights. Especially at the back -
Nicely enough judged reinterpretation but maybe missing a bit of the original utilitarian bruiser -
To be honest, I agree that this concept, although nice enough looks a bit too much "generic new Land Rover" with not enough "Discovery". - Surely the model families (Range Rover, Discovery, Defender if that's the way they want to play it) should each have their own distinguishing features but still be recognisable as Land Rovers?
One of the reasons I like all of the previous Discovery generations is that they've blended ruggedness, ability and a pracical, useful shape with interior comforts that Defenders etc. don't give you. This looks like it's missing the ruggedness / toughness and most people would probably mistake it for the Range Rover Sport.
One of the reasons I like all of the previous Discovery generations is that they've blended ruggedness, ability and a pracical, useful shape with interior comforts that Defenders etc. don't give you. This looks like it's missing the ruggedness / toughness and most people would probably mistake it for the Range Rover Sport.
skyrover said:
IroningMan said:
In all seriousness, who buys a Defender new for the tiny difference between its offroad capabilities with live axles and those it would have with independent suspension?
The difference is not tiny... there is a fundamental difference in the way the vehicle behaves 
As you can see... the vehicle underneath has much more traction.
The true reality is that the commercial element of offroading is far less extreme, it's building sites, forest tracks, estates, animal transport, not wanting to resort to a scrote's minivan etc.
I don't think anyone wants to see LR leave this little rugged corner of boy's own lifestyle but at the same time I think we all know it isn't commercially viable for big players restricted by land and other costs.
NomduJour said:
DonkeyApple said:
Especially when such people normally have a big desire to build their own vehicles
Hence the two in the pictures above being modified. It only needs to be more capable than the competition.
DonkeyApple said:
I agree. It's a double edged sword though. You're happy to see LR being so commercially successful but at the same time sad to see the brand being moved away from what is a seriously brilliant 'modding' scene. Modding a car to go over a pointless 3 foot outcrop is always more impressive than modding to look like an orange property investor
I like that (and agree with the rest of your post too). 
DonkeyApple said:
I agree. It's a double edged sword though. You're happy to see LR being so commercially successful but at the same time sad to see the brand being moved away from what is a seriously brilliant 'modding' scene. Modding a car to go over a pointless 3 foot outcrop is always more impressive than modding to look like an orange property investor
The brand hasn't been in the "modding" scene for ever. How many new LR buyers buy them to do that? Hardly any, if any at all. You can't set your brand strategy for what some 3rd or 4th owner does when the car is old. You set your brand startegy for the people who are going to buy your cars new. And LR are doing that brilliantly.I've delivered 3 Range Rovers in the past 2 days, $340k worth of new car sales, the lifeblood of the business. All 3 had V8 S/C engines so all 3 had 2 speed transfer cases. None of them will see low range until they are on at least the 2nd owners (probably not then). But if any of the proud new owners wish to leave terra firma they will do so in something that will in most conditions make a much better fist of it than a Defender.
unrepentant said:
DonkeyApple said:
I agree. It's a double edged sword though. You're happy to see LR being so commercially successful but at the same time sad to see the brand being moved away from what is a seriously brilliant 'modding' scene. Modding a car to go over a pointless 3 foot outcrop is always more impressive than modding to look like an orange property investor
The brand hasn't been in the "modding" scene for ever. How many new LR buyers buy them to do that? Hardly any, if any at all. You can't set your brand strategy for what some 3rd or 4th owner does when the car is old. You set your brand startegy for the people who are going to buy your cars new. And LR are doing that brilliantly.I've delivered 3 Range Rovers in the past 2 days, $340k worth of new car sales, the lifeblood of the business. All 3 had V8 S/C engines so all 3 had 2 speed transfer cases. None of them will see low range until they are on at least the 2nd owners (probably not then). But if any of the proud new owners wish to leave terra firma they will do so in something that will in most conditions make a much better fist of it than a Defender.
Anyway, the brand is massively in the modding scene, just ask any bloke with a credit line and a penchant for hair products and girlfriends who resemble sub £500 hookers. Or anyone buying a Defender.
And I wouldn't snub the 4th gen owners as they are as relevant to a brand in the long run as the first gens are to the comm salesmen or delivery drivers.
Suffix A's are smacking £70k+ now and those buyers are up to x gen +.
From that, I suspect most of your customers are ten-gallon asshats. Why buy an "SUV" if it will never leave tarmac?
No wonder Land Rover's "brand strategy" looks so precarious to anyone who might actually want a dual-purpose car. As for going off-road - you can't actually buy a new Range Rover with tyres that give you a fighting chance of getting out of the average British field.
No wonder Land Rover's "brand strategy" looks so precarious to anyone who might actually want a dual-purpose car. As for going off-road - you can't actually buy a new Range Rover with tyres that give you a fighting chance of getting out of the average British field.
NomduJour said:
From that, I suspect most of your customers are ten-gallon asshats. Why buy an "SUV" if it will never leave tarmac?
No wonder Land Rover's "brand strategy" looks so precarious to anyone who might actually want a dual-purpose car. As for going off-road - you can't actually buy a new Range Rover with tyres that give you a fighting chance of getting out of the average British field.
Who the hell are you to insult the people who are buying this great product? Seriously? You have no car history on your profile so should one assume that you're just another Corsa driving know nothing wannabe?No wonder Land Rover's "brand strategy" looks so precarious to anyone who might actually want a dual-purpose car. As for going off-road - you can't actually buy a new Range Rover with tyres that give you a fighting chance of getting out of the average British field.
You're also talking b
ks. I've taken LR's straight out of stock and driven them off road at a serious off road park we use, no problems at all. When they launched the L405 in Utah they used them on at least one occasion to rescue a Defender, and the cars were on stock tires. I also drove a new RRS at the LR course in NC, stock vehicle no problems whatsoever. For those who want to go off road (or deal with the ravages of a hard midwest winter which is what most of my cutomers want) a new LR is the best choice and the discerning customer knows that. LR has a unique heritage and every car they make builds on that heritage.
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