RE: Volkswagen Golf R 400
Discussion
ORD said:
Man is accused of being envious of people who get to drive a Golf.
Sometimes these things only need to be said to be funny.
Sometimes these things only need to be said to be funny.
scherzkeks said:
If the shoe fits… If my only vehicles were a truck or a family sedan that can't get out of it's own way, I suppose I'd be a little miffed at the existence of a 45k hot hatch with 3-400 hp too.
That reveals quite a lot about yourself actually. Again, surely if I were the jealous type, there are far more desirable objects to be envious of than an affordable fast Golf derivative (or any of the other cars I criticise)?scherzkeks said:
There is no real logical explanation for the degree of hairsplitting in this thread (or any that Clivey is involved in).
It's quite fun watching you squirm and telling when we see which questions you won't answer whilst you comment on others' opinions.Really, I'm a car enthusiast. Everyday performance cars interest me as I find them more relevant than A.N.Other impractical exotic and I might find myself in the market for something in this price range in the not too distant future. I just find it disappointing that the AWD Audis in particular look so much better than they drive. - You can pick-up a used TT RS for c£25k here, which really is a bit of a bargain for anyone who likes the cut of it's jib.
Hopefully, the new model drives with a bit more verve, though I would like to see the 5-pot return, which is looking doubtful.
ORD said:
No! Stay in this one. The combination of (1) actually quite detailed critique and (2) plans to saw a 5 series in two to make a sports car is just perfect
How many times do I have to say, at no point did I suggest actually taking out an angle-grinder and welder. The point I was making was that a shortened version of the same platform would provide a superior base for a performance hatch to a FWD-based Haldex system. Since the current 1-series platform is exactly that in dimensions at least (track front and rear asnearasdammit the same but about 6 inches shorter in wheelbase and about the same shorter in rear overhang IIRC), my point stands.And yes, why would Clivey or I be envious of someone who gets to drive a Golf?
BAHN-STORMA said:
Because you are both just bitter old men with too much time on your hands and nothing better to do?
Funnily enough, I was talking to my 22-year-old son about this and he agreed with what I had to say. A great car is a great car even if it's not that fast or new. A mediocre car is a mediocre car no matter how new, shiny or expensive. There's no envy involved here whatsoever. I have no desire ever to own a Golf of any variety.
scherzkeks said:
I have responded to your "arguments" so many times I have lost count. Your posts get the responses they deserve at this point, and I'm starting to think the childish taunts hit close to home.
Of course, by "responded" you mean "deliberately misquote and avoid answering the actual question". As soon as someone makes a criticism of VAG / Haldex, you go into full 'pram minus toys' mode. - I don't need to resort to childish taunts, nor TBH do I have a particular desire to.The front-based Haldex cars are blunt instruments that should involve and excite a lot more than they do. A sophisticated AWD system should also give them a distinct performance advantage in most situations yet they can't seem to exploit that to give them an edge over their rivals. - Cars like the Mitsubishi Evo and Nissan GTR show how AWD performance cars should be done - they're absurdly quick cars that still manage to involve the driver.
You say that the "traits" I notice in the VAG stuff isn't borne-out in real world tests. Let's look at some examples.
You would have thought that a tight, wet track would be the downfall of a short-wheelbase turbocharged RWD BMW, wouldn't you? Yet in the Auto Express test, it trounces the RS3.
Similarly, in the Evo track battle, the M135i comes in 1.1 seconds ahead of the new S3.
Now my German isn't as good as yours so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 10,000 Euro cheaper and 34 PS less powerful M235i just post a faster time than Merc's Haldex-equipped A45 AMG in Sport Auto's test? It would be particularly interesting to see a translation of this:
Sport Auto said:
Klingt danach, als habe AMG alles richtig gemacht? Vermutlich schon, doch die Basis lässt zu wünschen übrig, denn über 60 Prozent des Gesamtgewichts lasten auf der Vorderachse. Das führt dazu, dass die Vorderreifen bereits nach einer schnellen Runde zu warm werden und in der Folge an Grip verlieren. Dem daraus resultierenden Untersteuern lässt sich mit provozierten Lastwechseln noch entgegenwirken, doch beim Herausbeschleunigen schiebt der Mercedes CLA 45 AMG unnachgiebig über die Vorderräder – zumal der elektronisch geregelte Allradantrieb bei diesen Reibungsverhältnissen maximal 50 Prozent der Antriebskraft an die Hinterachse schickt.
Care to oblige?Clivey said:
You would have thought that a tight, wet track would be the downfall of a short-wheelbase turbocharged RWD BMW, wouldn't you? Yet in the Auto Express test, it trounces the RS3.
Similarly, in the Evo track battle, the M135i comes in 1.1 seconds ahead of the new S3.
I wouldn't care if it was 'slower' I'd still rather drive a rwd car than a 'fake' awd car, or any awd car to be honest.Similarly, in the Evo track battle, the M135i comes in 1.1 seconds ahead of the new S3.
I just don't see the need for awd in a road car that isn't required to have any off-road ability.
My next door neighbour has a RS3 and we both did a track day last year and his RS3 was 'faster' than my 135i, but faster included tortured tyre squeal, serious steering wheel wrestling and understeer.......whereas when he came out in my 135i he was amazed at how much more fun mine was and when I turned the steering wheel - amazingly it felt like the front wheels turned at the same time
I just wish there were more manufacturers still making affordable and compact rwd cars to have a bigger choice.
aeropilot said:
I wouldn't care if it was 'slower' I'd still rather drive a rwd car than a 'fake' awd car, or any awd car to be honest.
I just don't see the need for awd in a road car that isn't required to have any off-road ability.
In fairness, on the evidence we've seen the new models do seem to be a lot better. I'd just like for them to make something that has a bit more adjustability because when it's done well, AWD can be just as exhilarating as a good RWD chassis. As for "fake AWD", I'm sure scherzkeks is currently having an aneurysm.I just don't see the need for awd in a road car that isn't required to have any off-road ability.
I agree that you don't "need" AWD in a road car, but then again we don't "need" 300+ horsepower either.
aeropilot said:
I just wish there were more manufacturers still making affordable and compact rwd cars to have a bigger choice.
Definitely agree with this. - Hopefully (though I'm aware the possibility is remote), BMW make the 1M available as a hatch as well this time.Clivey said:
As for "fake AWD", I'm sure scherzkeks is currently having an aneurysm.
The penalty ones pays for being a blinkered fanboy Clivey said:
but then again we don't "need" 300+ horsepower either.
Well, yes, that's a vaild point.I've always been a fan of no such thing as too much power, but, that was years ago when 300hp was the exclusive territory of supercars......
I've got 326 in my 135i according to the dyno printout, and TBH that's just about right for todays roads and traffic conditions. Coupled with the DCT gearbox, the 135i is very fast (for someone that learnt to drive in Ford Cortina's and Morris Marina's etc) and I certainley haven't been tempted (yet) by the need for any more power for what is my daily drive.
Clivey said:
Hopefully (though I'm aware the possibility is remote), BMW make the 1M available as a hatch as well this time.
???Not sure what you mean by that. There won't be another 1M.
There might be a M2 which (almost certainly will be) will be based on the 2 Series coupe.
Clivey said:
Of course, by "responded" you mean "deliberately misquote and avoid answering the actual question". As soon as someone makes a criticism of VAG / Haldex, you go into full 'pram minus toys' mode. - I don't need to resort to childish taunts, nor TBH do I have a particular desire to.
I've simply respond to your trolling. Your posts contain no (demonstrated at least) understanding of engineering compromise. As mentioned to you countless times, in this segment (and really for all sedans and wagons) these chassis are inherently compromised as performance tools. The hairsplitting you engage in about whether one car has 5% less weight on the front axle is nearly meaningless in the overall context, when suspension tuning, drivetrains, and electronics are brought into the mix. Like a broken record, you simply repeat generalized truisms of chassis engineering for sports cars (which have little meaning in this segment, since none of the chassis on offer meet these standards) in a facile attempt to "win." Clivey said:
The front-based Haldex cars are blunt instruments that should involve and excite a lot more than they do. A sophisticated AWD system should also give them a distinct performance advantage in most situations yet they can't seem to exploit that to give them an edge over their rivals. - Cars like the Mitsubishi Evo and Nissan GTR show how AWD performance cars should be done - they're absurdly quick cars that still manage to involve the driver.
I disagree. They handle quite well, and post numbers that match or better their competitors. The GTR is not even relevant to this discussion. The EVO, while very good, also understeers at the limit. It's key advantage is active yaw control, which the latest Golf R is more or less using a variation of. Quite comically, the EVO's layout actually goes against virtually all of the principles you deem critical for a worthwhile performance car.Clivey said:
You say that the "traits" I notice in the VAG stuff isn't borne-out in real world tests. Let's look at some examples.
You would have thought that a tight, wet track would be the downfall of a short-wheelbase turbocharged RWD BMW, wouldn't you? Yet in the Auto Express test, it trounces the RS3.
Similarly, in the Evo track battle, the M135i comes in 1.1 seconds ahead of the new S3.
Yes, and I have posted tests from Sport Auto, Auto Bild, C&D, and others that contradict what you post. Wasn't the Golf R faster than the M135i in the Autobild test? You ignore these items time and time again, and this merely reinforces my point that you don't seem to understand engineering compromise or the subjective nature of "handling." What one driver prefers is not always what is "best" for given conditions or ultimate performance, and I personally would never suggest that such a marginal difference in a lap time is evidence that any ONE aspect of a car's design is responsible for a result in which many variables play a role -- particularly for non-sports cars.You would have thought that a tight, wet track would be the downfall of a short-wheelbase turbocharged RWD BMW, wouldn't you? Yet in the Auto Express test, it trounces the RS3.
Similarly, in the Evo track battle, the M135i comes in 1.1 seconds ahead of the new S3.
Clivey said:
Now my German isn't as good as yours so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 10,000 Euro cheaper and 34 PS less powerful M235i just post a faster time than Merc's Haldex-equipped A45 AMG in Sport Auto's test? It would be particularly interesting to see a translation of this:
You don't speak a lick of German. As for that test. Your hairsplitting is in full view again. It was .2 of a second faster.
Perhaps it was the fact that it was 72 kg lighter? Had PSSs? Maybe the driver does better with RWD?Why did the S3 8P go round Hockenheim over 2 seconds faster than the old 130i in Sport Auto's test? What does that say? Why was the TTRS faster than the 1M in almost every test between the two? Why was the RS3 judged a far better wet handling car than the TTRS, S5? There are many variables at play in these tests and trying to give one black/white "reason" for such results is futile.
Sport Auto said:
Klingt danach, als habe AMG alles richtig gemacht? Vermutlich schon, doch die Basis lässt zu wünschen übrig, denn über 60 Prozent des Gesamtgewichts lasten auf der Vorderachse. Das führt dazu, dass die Vorderreifen bereits nach einer schnellen Runde zu warm werden und in der Folge an Grip verlieren. Dem daraus resultierenden Untersteuern lässt sich mit provozierten Lastwechseln noch entgegenwirken, doch beim Herausbeschleunigen schiebt der Mercedes CLA 45 AMG unnachgiebig über die Vorderräder – zumal der elektronisch geregelte Allradantrieb bei diesen Reibungsverhältnissen maximal 50 Prozent der Antriebskraft an die Hinterachse schickt.
Care to oblige?The article also mentions (which you have missed, unsurprisingly) that the 235 benefits enormously from it's LSD; should we all trash the regular M135i now, since it clearly doesn't drive as precisely or put down it's power properly?
Anyways, I think this is the last bit of troll bait I'll be responding to.
It seems to boil down to lots of power vs. handling finesse.
I'm happy to acknowledge that a RWD/RWD-bias would be an advantage on track, but I am not buying a car to go on a track. In my current car I can't say I've ever got near the limits of adhesion. But I've frequently used all its power.
This is why the R400 would a perfect car for me.
I'm happy to acknowledge that a RWD/RWD-bias would be an advantage on track, but I am not buying a car to go on a track. In my current car I can't say I've ever got near the limits of adhesion. But I've frequently used all its power.
This is why the R400 would a perfect car for me.
scherzkeks said:
The article also mentions (which you have missed, unsurprisingly) that the 235 benefits enormously from it's LSD
Err..........what LSD?The M235 doesn't have a LSD, and it isn't a factory available option either.
There will be a dealer fit LSD option available soon (it was reported to be due out in April so could be available now as a dealer fit accessory)
Johnnytheboy said:
In my current car I can't say I've ever got near the limits of adhesion. But I've frequently used all its power.
This is why the R400 would a perfect car for me.
This is a perfect response to why I wish manufacturers didn't make awd cars, and awd 'performance' cars.This is why the R400 would a perfect car for me.
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