RE: Volkswagen Golf R 400
Discussion
ORD said:
BMW should really do more about weight. It hardly fits with the "driver's car" nonsense to be producing cars that are so much heavier than their competitors.
It is pretty sad to think that there are modern BMWs with about 80bhp per ton - the same as a Ford Focus from when I were a lad.
It is pretty sad to think that there are modern BMWs with about 80bhp per ton - the same as a Ford Focus from when I were a lad.
Unfortunately, most buyers these days care more about their car appearing flashy than what's under the bonnet, how it drives etc. and manufacturers (obviously, because they're a business) pander to them. That's why you can have a 4-pot with quad exhausts...or a 116d..."M-Sport".
RoverP6B said:
The "don't like it don't buy one" argument is utterly facile and could be used to defend all sorts of thoroughly sub-standard cars. Haldex on a transverse engine FWD platform is an inadequate solution to making a grippy, all-weather-capable performance car: it should be rejected.
why?in its latest gen it works far better than 95% of the "proper" quattro systems in the real world, only when you start adding sports diffs etc ala B8 RS4 does it feel weaker
RoverP6B said:
The "don't like it don't buy one" argument is utterly facile and could be used to defend all sorts of thoroughly sub-standard cars. Haldex on a transverse engine FWD platform is an inadequate solution to making a grippy, all-weather-capable performance car: it should be rejected.
So, rather than letting the market decide, we need some kind of all-powerful arbiter of what cars are allowed to be built. I nominate you.
RoverP6B said:
The "don't like it don't buy one" argument is utterly facile and could be used to defend all sorts of thoroughly sub-standard cars. Haldex on a transverse engine FWD platform is an inadequate solution to making a grippy, all-weather-capable performance car: it should be rejected.
Perhaps you should write to VW's engineering department? I'm sure they'd be fascinated to hear your points of view. They obviously don't know what they're doing. Pah! MQB? Biggest car maker in the world? I have a 10 year old BMW and I know more than the lot of you put together!RoverP6B said:
The "don't like it don't buy one" argument is utterly facile and could be used to defend all sorts of thoroughly sub-standard cars. Haldex on a transverse engine FWD platform is an inadequate solution to making a grippy, all-weather-capable performance car: it should be rejected.
What a ridiculous statement! What if you happen to like that set-up in a car? I've met racing drivers who prefer FWD to RWD, for example. So should they then be forced to drive RWD only because it's a "better" set-up? Surely, you can accept that not everybody likes the same thing and if that's the case, then it's not much more of leap to accept the "don't like it, don't buy it" argument.Actus Reus said:
RoverP6B said:
The "don't like it don't buy one" argument is utterly facile and could be used to defend all sorts of thoroughly sub-standard cars. Haldex on a transverse engine FWD platform is an inadequate solution to making a grippy, all-weather-capable performance car: it should be rejected.
Perhaps you should write to VW's engineering department? I'm sure they'd be fascinated to hear your points of view. They obviously don't know what they're doing. Pah! MQB? Biggest car maker in the world? I have a 10 year old BMW and I know more than the lot of you put together!Is Haldex cheaper and/or lighter and better for fuel efficiency? Any one of those would be a good reason to prefer it to Torsen in a road car that, after all, is not super-expensive.
RoverP6B said:
How on earth can Haldex ever outperform Torsen, then?
It's actually got a leg up on the Torsen system in several areas. It is faster to react and takes more data into account when predicting torque loads; does better on mixed surfaces (several Sport Auto tests back this one); and before the advent of the sports differential as in my S4, could also deal with understeer better in some situations. With the addition of the revised EDS on the new VAG cars and the way Gen 4 and 5 fully locks up on acceleration and during heavy weight transfer, it's somewhat similar to the system in the Polo WRC, which is locked 50/50 and uses LSDs on each axle. I used to knock it years ago, but chatting with people who work on and really understand how these systems work changed my mind -- so much so that I actually bought an S3 Sportback and kept it up until it became too small for the family.
Actus Reus said:
Perhaps you should write to VW's engineering department? I'm sure they'd be fascinated to hear your points of view. They obviously don't know what they're doing. Pah! MQB? Biggest car maker in the world? I have a 10 year old BMW and I know more than the lot of you put together!
And remember they are forced to design these cars 
Johnnytheboy said:
I don't know and I don't care!
So you're prepared to accept it just because the manufacturer tells you it's fine, without actually knowing if it is?Actus Reus said:
Perhaps you should write to VW's engineering department? I'm sure they'd be fascinated to hear your points of view. They obviously don't know what they're doing. Pah! MQB? Biggest car maker in the world? I have a 10 year old BMW and I know more than the lot of you put together!
I just don't respect VW from an engineering POV. There are some fine engineers there, mostly in Quattro GMBH, but their bread and butter is stultifyingly dull shopping trolleys which don't need to handle well, they just have to be built somewhat down to a price while incorporating enough soft-touch plastics in the dash to command a premium over Focuses, Astras, Cee'ds etc. Also, last I knew, GM and Toyota were bigger than VAG, though that may have changed recently?J-P said:
What a ridiculous statement! What if you happen to like that set-up in a car? I've met racing drivers who prefer FWD to RWD, for example. So should they then be forced to drive RWD only because it's a "better" set-up? Surely, you can accept that not everybody likes the same thing and if that's the case, then it's not much more of leap to accept the "don't like it, don't buy it" argument.RoverP6B said:
I just don't respect VW from an engineering POV. There are some fine engineers there, mostly in Quattro GMBH, but their bread and butter is stultifyingly dull shopping trolleys which don't need to handle well, they just have to be built somewhat down to a price while incorporating enough soft-touch plastics in the dash to command a premium over Focuses, Astras, Cee'ds etc. Also, last I knew, GM and Toyota were bigger than VAG, though that may have changed recently?
Well, I jest, of course, but VW aren't in the car business to impress us with their engineering, they're here to make money - and they're damn good at it. And part of that comes from understanding what their customers want and will buy.MQB is probably one of the most significant things to happen to mainstream car manufacturing in years anyway - a versatile platform upon which hundreds of models of car will be built. You may not LIKE their style, but you can't deny the quality and integrity of what they do.
As to building dull cars, those are the cars that sell - want a GT3 sir? Cayenne owners pay for the GT3 to still exist.
Actus Reus said:
Well, I jest, of course, but VW aren't in the car business to impress us with their engineering, they're here to make money - and they're damn good at it. And part of that comes from understanding what their customers want and will buy.
MQB is probably one of the most significant things to happen to mainstream car manufacturing in years anyway - a versatile platform upon which hundreds of models of car will be built. You may not LIKE their style, but you can't deny the quality and integrity of what they do.
As to building dull cars, those are the cars that sell - want a GT3 sir? Cayenne owners pay for the GT3 to still exist.
My concern is that other manufacturers will follow VAG's lead and we'll be left with a market full of samey cars.MQB is probably one of the most significant things to happen to mainstream car manufacturing in years anyway - a versatile platform upon which hundreds of models of car will be built. You may not LIKE their style, but you can't deny the quality and integrity of what they do.
As to building dull cars, those are the cars that sell - want a GT3 sir? Cayenne owners pay for the GT3 to still exist.
To an extent, we have that already - lots of cars built on the same platform and differentiated mostly by styling: see Leon/Golf/Octavia.
I cannot agree with Rover that the Golf handles badly. Firstl, I test drove a fairly standard one this weekend and it handled nicely. Secondly, my view accords with every major review that I have been able to find online. What am I missing? Did the Golf handle like a Porsche? Nope. It's a family hatchback. Does the R handle like a Porsche? I doubt it. It's a hatchback with a powerful engine and enough performance-related modifications to enable it to cope with the power and speed. Nothing wrong with that.
I expect that I would take a Golf over quite a lot of cars that I have driven (including RWD cars) to get me from A to B quickly and safely, which is a fairly good test of its real world appeal. 400bhp would give the same car a lot of 'point and shoot' fun. I'm all for it!
I'm also damn impressed that VAG have managed to get 400bhp out of 2 litres and are, it seems, willing to back that up with a warranty. Surely 200bhp per litre is supercar stuff?
I cannot agree with Rover that the Golf handles badly. Firstl, I test drove a fairly standard one this weekend and it handled nicely. Secondly, my view accords with every major review that I have been able to find online. What am I missing? Did the Golf handle like a Porsche? Nope. It's a family hatchback. Does the R handle like a Porsche? I doubt it. It's a hatchback with a powerful engine and enough performance-related modifications to enable it to cope with the power and speed. Nothing wrong with that.
I expect that I would take a Golf over quite a lot of cars that I have driven (including RWD cars) to get me from A to B quickly and safely, which is a fairly good test of its real world appeal. 400bhp would give the same car a lot of 'point and shoot' fun. I'm all for it!
I'm also damn impressed that VAG have managed to get 400bhp out of 2 litres and are, it seems, willing to back that up with a warranty. Surely 200bhp per litre is supercar stuff?
RoverP6B said:
I just said it's not a terribly agile or adjustable thing
Funny, as several of the reviews I've read of the R praised those two things. And, if I'm honest, I value feedback from people who've driven cars much more than I value feedback from people who haven't- and I'm fairly certain I speak for most people on that.I'd agree with that assessment on the basis that the R won't feel hugely different from the basic Golf.
I don't think any of those defending the Golf are saying that it's anything other than a hot hatch, with all that comes with that description - great straight line acceleration; decent and safe handling; impressive practicality. It isn't a Lotus and would not be a very good 'weekends only' car - but it's fairly damn impressive as a one car option.
I don't think any of those defending the Golf are saying that it's anything other than a hot hatch, with all that comes with that description - great straight line acceleration; decent and safe handling; impressive practicality. It isn't a Lotus and would not be a very good 'weekends only' car - but it's fairly damn impressive as a one car option.
RoverP6B said:
"Racing drivers" - on what level, in what series? I'd like to know why GT series, DTM etc all stick to RWD, and they ultimately banned BMW from the BTCC because they were so much quicker than the FWD cars. I wasn't campaigning for the Golf to go RWD, incidentally, just for it to adopt a proper permanent 4WD system, like the S4's Quattro setup.
That's news to me, I can only assume I was imagining the EBAY 1 series I was seeing at Thruxton on Sunday! Performance wise they are fairly balanced, the RWD's are quicker off the line and a bit easier on tyres but the FWD's fare a lot better in the wet.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff