The E46 M3 is the best car I have ever owned

[McSam]

Perhaps, but I've seen quite a few E36 and E46 saloons and none had folding seats! There's a steel bulkhead instead. Makes them marginally preferable as track cars.

[kambites]

Presumably that also means the chassis stiffness figures that show the saloon to be better than the coupe are only true for the saloon without folding seats? That would certainly make sense, I never understood how a four-door could be more rigid than a two-door version of the same car.

It must be almost unique if the monocoque is actually different depending on whether an option is specified?


FWIW, I've never knowingly seen one without folding seats. It would be interesting to know what proportion had the option.

Edited by kambites on Monday 21st April 22:12

[Mave]

kambites said:

Presumably that also means the chassis stiffness figures that show the saloon to be better than the coupe are only true for the saloon without folding seats? That would certainly make sense, I never understood how a four-door could be more rigid than a two-door version of the same car.

It must be almost unique if the monocoque is actually different depending on whether an option is specified?

I think even the saloon with folding rear seats is slightly stiffer than then the coupe due to the shorter front door apetures.

[kambites]

How on earth did BMW manage to make the 2-door so floppy?

[mwstewart]

Figures below. The M3 shell is reinforced around the C pillar area and also has bracing fore and aft underneath. I'll see if I can find the exact measurement for it.

Alfa 159 - 31,400 Nm/deg
Aston Martin DB9 Coupe - 27,000 Nm/deg
Aston Martin DB9 Convertible - 15,500 Nm/deg
Aston Martin Rapide - 28,000 Nm/deg
Aston Martin Vanquish - 28,500 Nm/deg
Audi A2 - 11,900 Nm/deg
Audi A8 - 25,000 Nm/deg
Audi R8 - (2014 MY) - 40,000 Nm/deg
Audi TT Coupe - 19,000 Nm/deg
Bentley Azure - 18,000 Nm/deg
Bugatti EB110 - 19,000 Nm/deg
Bugatti Veyron - 60,000 Nm/deg
Bugatti Veyron Grand Sport - 22,000 Nm/deg
BMW E30 M3 - 23,000 Nm/deg
BMW E36 Touring - 10,900 Nm/deg
BMW E36 Z3 - 5,600 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Sedan (w/o folding seats) - 18,000 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Sedan (w/folding seats) - 13,000 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Wagon (w/folding seats) - 14,000 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Coupe (w/folding seats) - 12,500 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Convertible - 10,500 Nm/deg
BMW E53 X5 (2004) - 23,100 Nm/deg
BMW E90 - 22,500 Nm/deg
BMW Z4 Coupe - 32,000 Nm/deg
BMW Z4 Roadster - 14,500 Nm/deg
BMW E39 5 - 24,000 Nm/deg
BMW E60 5 - 24,000 Nm/deg
BMW F10 5 - 37,500 Nm/deg
BMW F07 5GT - 31,000 Nm/deg
BMW E70 X5 - 28,000 Nm/deg
Chrysler Crossfire - 20,140 Nm/deg
Chrysler Durango - 6,800 Nm/deg
Chevrolet Cobalt - 28 Hz (conversion anyone??)
Chevrolet Corvette C5 - 9,100 Nm/deg
Chevrolet Cruze - 17,600 Nm/deg
Dodge Viper Coupe - 7,600 Nm/deg
Ferrari 360 Spider - 8,500 Nm/deg
Ferrari F50 - 34,600 Nm/deg
Ferrari 360 - 1,474 kgm/degree (bending: 1,032 kg/mm) (what does this mean?)
Ferrari 355 - 1,024 kgm/degree (bending: 727 kg/mm)
Fisker Karma - 33,000 Nm/deg
Ford Focus 3d - 19,600 Nm/deg
Ford Focus 5d - 17,900 Nm/deg
Ford GT - 27,100 Nm/deg
Ford GT40 MkI - 17,000 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang 2003 - 16,000 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang 2005 - 21,000 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang Convertible (2003) - 4,800 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang Convertible (2005) - 9,500 Nm/deg
Jaguar X-Type Sedan - 22,000 Nm/deg
Jaguar X-Type Estate - 16,319 Nm/deg
Jaguar XK - 16,000 Nm/deg
Koenigsegg Agera - 58,000 Nm/deg
Koenigsegg Agera R - 65,000 Nm/deg
Koenigsegg CC-8 - 28,100 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Aventador - 35,000 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Countach - 2,600 Nm/deg
Lambo Gallardo - 23,000 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Gallardo Super Trofeo Stradale - 35,000 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Murcielago - 20,000 Nm/deg
Land rover Freelander 2 - 28,000 Nm/deg
Lexus LF-A - 39,130 Nm/deg
Lotus Elan - 7,900 Nm/deg
Lotus Elan GRP body - 8,900 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise - 10,000 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise 111s - 11,000 Nm/deg
Lotus Esprit SE Turbo - 5,850 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise S2 Exige (2004) - 10,500 Nm/deg
Maserati QP - 18,000 Nm/deg
Mazda Rx-7 - 15,000 Nm/deg
Mazda Rx-8 - 30,000 Nm/deg
McLaren F1 - 13,500 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz SL - With top down - 17,000 Nm/deg, with top up 21,000 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz W212 E - 29,920 Nm/deg
Mini (2003) - 24,500 Nm/deg
Opel Astra - 12,000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda C12 - 25,000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda C12 S - 26,300 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda F - 27,000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda Roadster - 18,000 Nm/deg
Porsche 959 - 12,900 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo (2000) - 13,500 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo 996 - 27,000 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo 996 Convertible - 11,600 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 (997) - 33,000 Nm/deg
Porsche Carrera GT - 26,000Nm/deg
Renault Sport Spider - 10,000 Nm/deg
Rolls-Royce Phantom - 40,500 Nm/deg
Saab 9-3 Sportcombi - 21,000 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Fox - 17,941 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Passat (2006) - 32,400 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Phaeton - 37,000 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Golf V GTI - 25,000 Nm/deg
Volvo S60 - 20,000 Nm/deg
Volvo S80 - 18,600 Nm/deg

[s m]

HannsG said:

kambites said:

I'm sure the last E46 saloon I drove had folding rear seats? Wasn't it an optional extra on both body-styles? The estate certainly does.

I must admit the B-pillar position was something that I hadn't really considered. I'm only six foot, so I've never really had a problem with rear 3/4 visibility.

I'm pretty sure the folding seats was a £1000 option..

It was an option on both E36 and E46 saloons - it was nowhere near £1000. I've had it on both models, and also an E46 saloon without

[mwstewart]

A longer list:

Numerical order (Nm/deg)

Koenigsegg Agera R - 65000 Nm/deg
Bugatti Veyron - 60000 Nm/deg
Koenigsegg Agera - 58000 Nm/deg
Rolls Royce Phantom - 40500 Nm/deg
Audi R8 (2014 MY) - 40000 Nm/deg
Lexus LF-A - 39130 Nm/deg
BMW F10 5 - 37500 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Phaeton - 37000 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Aventador - 35000 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Gallardo Super Trofeo Stradale - 35000 Nm/deg
Ferrari F50 - 34600 Nm/deg
Fisker Karma - 33000 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 (997) - 33000 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Passat (2006) - 32400 Nm/deg
BMW Z4 Coupe - 32000 Nm/deg
Alfa 159 - 31400 Nm/deg
BMW F07 5GT - 31000 Nm/deg
Mazda Rx-8 - 30000 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz W212 E - 29920 Nm/deg
Aston Martin Vanquish - 28500 Nm/deg
Koenigsegg CC8 - 28100 Nm/deg
Aston Martin Rapide - 28000 Nm/deg
BMW E70 X5 - 28000 Nm/deg
Land rover Freelander 2 - 28000 Nm/deg
Ford GT - 27100 Nm/deg
Aston Martin DB9 Coupe - 27000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda F - 27000 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo 996 - 27000 Nm/deg
Lotus Evora - 26600 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda C12 S - 26300 Nm/deg
Porsche Carrera GT - 26000 Nm/deg
Audi A8 - 25000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda C12 - 25000 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Golf V GTI - 25000 Nm/deg
BMW E46 M3 Coupe - 25000 Nm/deg
Mini (2003) - 24500 Nm/deg
BMW E39 5 - 24000 Nm/deg
BMW E60 5 - 24000 Nm/deg
BMW E53 X5 (2004) - 23100 Nm/deg
BMW E30 M3 - 23000 Nm/deg
Lambo Gallardo - 23000 Nm/deg
BMW E90 - 22500 Nm/deg
Bugatti Veyron Grand Sport - 22000 Nm/deg
Jaguar X (Sedan) - 22000 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz SL (top up) - 21000 Nm/deg
Saab 9-3 Sportcombi - 21000 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang 2005 - 21000 Nm/deg
Chrysler Crossfire - 20140 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Murcielago - 20000 Nm/deg
Volvo S60 - 20000 Nm/deg
Ford Focus 3d - 19600 Nm/deg
Audi TT Coupe - 19000 Nm/deg
Bugatti EB110 - 19000 Nm/deg
Volvo S80 - 18600 Nm/deg
Bentley Azure - 18000 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Sedan (w/o folding seats) - 18000 Nm/deg
Maserati QP - 18000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda Roadster - 18000 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Fox - 17941 Nm/deg
Ford Focus 5d - 17900 Nm/deg
Chevrolet Cruze - 17600 Nm/deg
Ford GT40 MkI - 17000 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz SL (top down) - 17000 Nm/deg
Jaguar X (Estate) - 16319 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang 2003 - 16000 Nm/deg
Jaguar XK - 16000 Nm/deg
Aston Martin DB9 Convertible - 15500 Nm/deg
Mazda Rx-7 - 15000 Nm/deg
BMW Z4 Roadster - 14500 Nm/deg
Ferrari 360 - 14455 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Wagon (w/folding seats) - 14000 Nm/deg
McLaren F1 - 13500 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo (2000) - 13500 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Sedan (w/folding seats) - 13000 Nm/deg
Porsche 959 - 12900 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Coupe (w/folding seats) - 12500 Nm/deg
Opel Astra - 12000 Nm/deg
Audi A2 - 11900 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo 996 Convertible - 11600 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise 111s - 11000 Nm/deg
BMW E36 Touring - 10900 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Convertible - 10500 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise S2 Exige (2004) - 10500 Nm/deg
Ferrari 355 - 10042 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise - 10000 Nm/deg
Renault Sport Spider - 10000 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang Convertible (2005) - 9500 Nm/deg
Chevrolet Corvette C5 - 9100 Nm/deg
Lotus Elan GRP body - 8900 Nm/deg
Ferrari 360 Spider - 8500 Nm/deg
Lotus Elan - 7900 Nm/deg
Dodge Viper Coupe - 7600 Nm/deg
Chrysler Durango - 6800 Nm/deg
Lotus Esprit SE Turbo - 5850 Nm/deg
BMW E36 Z3 - 5600 Nm/deg
Mazda MX-5 (later w/ bracing) - 5150 Nm/deg
Mazda MX-5 (1990) - 4880 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang Convertible (2003) - 4800 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Countach - 2600 Nm/deg

[DanielJames]

How the hell did you find a SG with the red interior and a manual box

[little328ci]

That's an impressive piece of research, im nearly a year into ownership e46 m3 coming from a 330ci and a 328ci before that ,and in answer to how does it feel compared to a 328ci round town it feels a bit of a step up, bit more pull , but put some revs on and its a different matter all together.Just had a inspection 2 and 2 new tyres , 1300 quid all in , but worth it, car feels even better .

[SIMONTT]

kambites said:

Clearly BMW didn't make a touring because they didn't think it would sell in sufficient numbers to justify the development expense. However, that doesn't mean it's not a shame; the 3-series "coupe" body shape has very little appeal to me - it just seems to be impractical for the sake of being impractical.

This. For me a E46 or E91 M3 Touring would have been the perfect "all in one" car, eventually settled for a E91 335i Msport Touring auto due to its blend of practicality, Q car appeal, ease of use, reasonable running cost and accessible/useful performance.

Despite its straight performance being not far off from a E46 M3 (a lightly remapped one would be faster), it's handling is tuned for comfort and certainly does not feel as special as any M cars, which is a shame.

[SL22]

About folding seats - I was very surprised when not long after getting my Jaguar S Type R (4.2 Supercharged V8) I went to fold my rear seats, manged to fold them, but then there was a metal panel across the usual hole, with only a six inch square gap left! I was never going to fit my large object through there! A bit of digging and it turns out that only the R has that additional support/stiffening..the things you learn after you have bought a car!

[topless360]

mwstewart said:

A longer list:

Numerical order (Nm/deg)

Koenigsegg Agera R - 65000 Nm/deg
Bugatti Veyron - 60000 Nm/deg
Koenigsegg Agera - 58000 Nm/deg
Rolls Royce Phantom - 40500 Nm/deg
Audi R8 (2014 MY) - 40000 Nm/deg
Lexus LF-A - 39130 Nm/deg
BMW F10 5 - 37500 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Phaeton - 37000 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Aventador - 35000 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Gallardo Super Trofeo Stradale - 35000 Nm/deg
Ferrari F50 - 34600 Nm/deg
Fisker Karma - 33000 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 (997) - 33000 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Passat (2006) - 32400 Nm/deg
BMW Z4 Coupe - 32000 Nm/deg
Alfa 159 - 31400 Nm/deg
BMW F07 5GT - 31000 Nm/deg
Mazda Rx-8 - 30000 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz W212 E - 29920 Nm/deg
Aston Martin Vanquish - 28500 Nm/deg
Koenigsegg CC8 - 28100 Nm/deg
Aston Martin Rapide - 28000 Nm/deg
BMW E70 X5 - 28000 Nm/deg
Land rover Freelander 2 - 28000 Nm/deg
Ford GT - 27100 Nm/deg
Aston Martin DB9 Coupe - 27000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda F - 27000 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo 996 - 27000 Nm/deg
Lotus Evora - 26600 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda C12 S - 26300 Nm/deg
Porsche Carrera GT - 26000 Nm/deg
Audi A8 - 25000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda C12 - 25000 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Golf V GTI - 25000 Nm/deg
BMW E46 M3 Coupe - 25000 Nm/deg
Mini (2003) - 24500 Nm/deg
BMW E39 5 - 24000 Nm/deg
BMW E60 5 - 24000 Nm/deg
BMW E53 X5 (2004) - 23100 Nm/deg
BMW E30 M3 - 23000 Nm/deg
Lambo Gallardo - 23000 Nm/deg
BMW E90 - 22500 Nm/deg
Bugatti Veyron Grand Sport - 22000 Nm/deg
Jaguar X (Sedan) - 22000 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz SL (top up) - 21000 Nm/deg
Saab 9-3 Sportcombi - 21000 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang 2005 - 21000 Nm/deg
Chrysler Crossfire - 20140 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Murcielago - 20000 Nm/deg
Volvo S60 - 20000 Nm/deg
Ford Focus 3d - 19600 Nm/deg
Audi TT Coupe - 19000 Nm/deg
Bugatti EB110 - 19000 Nm/deg
Volvo S80 - 18600 Nm/deg
Bentley Azure - 18000 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Sedan (w/o folding seats) - 18000 Nm/deg
Maserati QP - 18000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda Roadster - 18000 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Fox - 17941 Nm/deg
Ford Focus 5d - 17900 Nm/deg
Chevrolet Cruze - 17600 Nm/deg
Ford GT40 MkI - 17000 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz SL (top down) - 17000 Nm/deg
Jaguar X (Estate) - 16319 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang 2003 - 16000 Nm/deg
Jaguar XK - 16000 Nm/deg
Aston Martin DB9 Convertible - 15500 Nm/deg
Mazda Rx-7 - 15000 Nm/deg
BMW Z4 Roadster - 14500 Nm/deg
Ferrari 360 - 14455 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Wagon (w/folding seats) - 14000 Nm/deg
McLaren F1 - 13500 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo (2000) - 13500 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Sedan (w/folding seats) - 13000 Nm/deg
Porsche 959 - 12900 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Coupe (w/folding seats) - 12500 Nm/deg
Opel Astra - 12000 Nm/deg
Audi A2 - 11900 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo 996 Convertible - 11600 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise 111s - 11000 Nm/deg
BMW E36 Touring - 10900 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Convertible - 10500 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise S2 Exige (2004) - 10500 Nm/deg
Ferrari 355 - 10042 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise - 10000 Nm/deg
Renault Sport Spider - 10000 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang Convertible (2005) - 9500 Nm/deg
Chevrolet Corvette C5 - 9100 Nm/deg
Lotus Elan GRP body - 8900 Nm/deg
Ferrari 360 Spider - 8500 Nm/deg
Lotus Elan - 7900 Nm/deg
Dodge Viper Coupe - 7600 Nm/deg
Chrysler Durango - 6800 Nm/deg
Lotus Esprit SE Turbo - 5850 Nm/deg
BMW E36 Z3 - 5600 Nm/deg
Mazda MX-5 (later w/ bracing) - 5150 Nm/deg
Mazda MX-5 (1990) - 4880 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang Convertible (2003) - 4800 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Countach - 2600 Nm/deg

Off topic but thanks for the info, is this a direct measurement of body stiffness?

If so I'm surprised to see the 360 Spider so far down the list, especially as Ferrari apparantly designed it with the soft top in mind.

[danp]

Interesting list, would query how the e46 m3 could be twice as torsionally rigid as a regular coupe, and that the e39 and e60 5 series have the same figure (plus I'm sure there are other anomalies)