Buying modern 'bangers'

[sat1983]

We're getting to a time where bangers are now relatively complicated. I am looking at a 13 year old diesel motor and although it isn't anywhere near as complicated at 2014 metal the potential bills it could create alarms me.


Am I on my own worrying about this?

[Jasandjules]

Well I've been concerned for a few years now that cars are getting too clever for their own good and fixing them is now a garage job.

I remember when younger fitting new suspension and a door to my Fiesta, can't imagine being able to that these days.

[chris1roll]

It is a bit of a concern.
we've just recently got a 13yr old V70 for my wife.
It's a completely different beast to the volvo's I / We've had before. Electronic this, CANBUS that, everything linked together and coded so you can't just bung in scrapyard parts....

But I'm still determined I am going to maintain it myself as I always have done with our cars.
I just might have to learn another skill set, and maybe invest in a decent code reader, whereas before I could make a pretty good guess at any problems.

As the cars get older, there are companies and individuals springing up to repair any failing electronic components, saving a fortune on new, and negating the need for a dealer trip to get it recoded.
e.g. I've just had the electronic throttle module rebuilt (light came on a week after buying ) for £129+postage. This with contactless sensors that won't fail like the original. Light is now out, the car is running perfect.
The same company will repair a instrument cluster for about £60 and an ABS unit for a similar amount.

[PlankWithANailIn]

All that's changed is that you now have more mechanical and electrical components, these just need replacing when they brake like the other more familiar components.

Also I do not understand the door and suspension observation, surely these have not changed much if at all in the last 20 years? Door has electrical connection and a hinge; Suspension is McPherson struts front and possibly back too.

Perhaps the cars have not changed but that the buyers have got old?

[IanMorewood]

Some electrical components though are only main dealer sourced and as such can command silly prices, only realistic option sometimes is to find one in a scrap yard and pray you can fit it.

[750turbo]

Jasandjules said:

Well I've been concerned for a few years now that cars are getting too clever for their own good and fixing them is now a garage job.

I remember when younger fitting new suspension and a door to my Fiesta, can't imagine being able to that these days.

I remember the first time I saw a Timing Belt - I thought to myself these will never take off - How the heck can they be as strong as a chain?

Then there was Airbags, and god forbid Electronic Fuel Injection!

Utter Witchcraft

[750turbo]

IanMorewood said:

Some electrical components though are only main dealer sourced and as such can command silly prices, only realistic option sometimes is to find one in a scrap yard and pray you can fit it.

And the issues occur when it has to use some new fangled gadgetry to get the bloody thing to fit the car!

A good few years ago I was working with a few Volvo Manufacturer guys for the day - They terrified the life out of me by describing the build process of the cars ensured that no 2 identical ECU's were fitted to the model range at the time. (I presume they would have needed dealer codeing if they were ever changed) Lets hope they were reliable!

[Bill]

sat1983 said:

We're getting to a time where bangers are now relatively complicated. I am looking at a 13 year old diesel motor and although it isn't anywhere near as complicated at 2014 metal the potential bills it could create alarms me.


Am I on my own worrying about this?

This is why we got a 10 year old petrol car with a cam chain two years ago.

[anonymous-user]

The way I like to think of it is this:

In the dim distant past buying a 10 year old car meant that within a few years rust and rot WOULD kill it without significant expenditure of time or money.

Today when you buy a 10 year old car failure of something electronic MAY kill it without significant expenditure of money.

Basically if you don't have the skills to weld you're much better of with a modern banger than an old banger. Skinflint motorists have never had it better.

[Mr GrimNasty]

sat1983 said:

We're getting to a time where bangers are now relatively complicated. I am looking at a 13 year old diesel motor and although it isn't anywhere near as complicated at 2014 metal the potential bills it could create alarms me.


Am I on my own worrying about this?

Yes. That puts you firmly in VAG tdi territory. Nuff said.

[Noisy]

Although modern cars are complicated they are common place which means code readers are now cheap for home mechanics, I use the Torque Pro app for my phone £4.95 with a £6.95 bluetooth adapter, it can read codes, monitor engine parameters and clear fault codes, good enough to diagnose issues I've had with my car and friends. Its nice when the car can actually tell you with wrong with it, my GF's mums golf recently had a coil problem, the app told me the fault and even which coil to replace.

[Puddenchucker]

sat1983 said:

I am looking at a 13 year old diesel motor and although it isn't anywhere near as complicated at 2014 metal the potential bills it could create alarms me.

Surely that depends, to an extent, on how much you're going to spend on buying the car?

If it's at the cheap end of the scale, which a 13 year old 'normal' car probably will be, you could almost treat it as disposable: When it breaks you scrap it / break for spares and buy another.

I'm in a similar predicament, my 12.5 year old daily shed will soon be due for a cambelt replacement.
Do I spend the money and hope that nothing else expensive needs doing for a couple of years, until rust eats the bodywork, (the exhaust & battery are also on borrowed time and the auto box has on a couple of occasions misplaced 3rd & 4th) or do I play cambelt roulette?

[MarvGTI]

chris1roll said:

I just might have to learn another skill set, and maybe invest in a decent code reader, whereas before I could make a pretty good guess at any problems.

As the cars get older, there are companies and individuals springing up to repair any failing electronic components, saving a fortune on new, and negating the need for a dealer trip to get it recoded.
e.g. I've just had the electronic throttle module rebuilt (light came on a week after buying ) for £129+postage. This with contactless sensors that won't fail like the original. Light is now out, the car is running perfect.
The same company will repair a instrument cluster for about £60 and an ABS unit for a similar amount.

Agree with this 100%, it's an industry where there's a lot of money to be made so people will come up with (less expensive than garages') ways to keep stuff going.

[R12HCO]

Mr GrimNasty said:

Yes. That puts you firmly in VAG tdi territory. Nuff said.

This.

My experience of a MK4 GT TDI golf has put me off anything VAG and diesel of the early 2000 era.

The price they cost to fix vs value of car is a joke.

A shame really, as I would happily ditch the e39 for another but I cant trust them. Lovely to drive for their age though.

[V8forweekends]

MarvGTI said:

chris1roll said:

I just might have to learn another skill set, and maybe invest in a decent code reader, whereas before I could make a pretty good guess at any problems.

As the cars get older, there are companies and individuals springing up to repair any failing electronic components, saving a fortune on new, and negating the need for a dealer trip to get it recoded.
e.g. I've just had the electronic throttle module rebuilt (light came on a week after buying ) for £129+postage. This with contactless sensors that won't fail like the original. Light is now out, the car is running perfect.
The same company will repair a instrument cluster for about £60 and an ABS unit for a similar amount.

Agree with this 100%, it's an industry where there's a lot of money to be made so people will come up with (less expensive than garages') ways to keep stuff going.

This is why a rare model banger is a bad idea - these things do work, but there needs to be a prospect of some livelihood - no-ones going to make rare replacement mechanical/electrical bits for, say, a Vel Satis.

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Noisy said:

Although modern cars are complicated they are common place which means code readers are now cheap for home mechanics, I use the Torque Pro app for my phone £4.95 with a £6.95 bluetooth adapter, it can read codes, monitor engine parameters and clear fault codes, good enough to diagnose issues I've had with my car and friends. Its nice when the car can actually tell you with wrong with it, my GF's mums golf recently had a coil problem, the app told me the fault and even which coil to replace.

Er, yeah, kinda - it would be nice if it was always that simple. Sadly, even now, ECU fault code reading is not always fool-proof. If there's a short or wiring fault, or even a sensor or part which fails in a strange way, then it can often lead you right down the garden path if you take the fault codes for granted.

I'll give you a very recent example actually!

My VAG occasionally suffers from the well-known VAG fault of this vintage, of failed coil packs. Fortunately my mechanical experience can recognise this fault pretty much straight away, just with experience.

Anyway two weeks ago, I was driving home, and copped a sudden misfire, with the EML light coming up. I was pretty sure it was a failed coil pack, but when I got home, I plugged in my laptop with VCDS diagnostics.

The faults listed were:

Misfire detected cylinder 1
Misfire detected cylinder 2
Short to ground injector 1
Short to ground injector 2
Short to ground secondary air pump


All looks a bit doesn't it? If I had taken the code reader faults at face value, I would be panicking about numerous faults, and / or wiring problems.

It was, in fact, a dead coil pack on cylinder 1, as I suspected. After replacement, and clearing all these codes, no new codes appeared after a drive.


So...yes, modern electronics and fault code readers are ok...but still no substitute for a bit of knowledge and common sense!

[MarvGTI]

V8forweekends said:

This is why a rare model banger is a bad idea - these things do work, but there needs to be a prospect of some livelihood - no-ones going to make rare replacement mechanical/electrical bits for, say, a Vel Satis.

Or an Avantime!

I saw one of those for sale incidentally here in Luxembourg just today, and it looked in horrible condition...

[Noisy]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Er, yeah, kinda - it would be nice if it was always that simple. Sadly, even now, ECU fault code reading is not always fool-proof. If there's a short or wiring fault, or even a sensor or part which fails in a strange way, then it can often lead you right down the garden path if you take the fault codes for granted.

I'll give you a very recent example actually!

My VAG occasionally suffers from the well-known VAG fault of this vintage, of failed coil packs. Fortunately my mechanical experience can recognise this fault pretty much straight away, just with experience.

Anyway two weeks ago, I was driving home, and copped a sudden misfire, with the EML light coming up. I was pretty sure it was a failed coil pack, but when I got home, I plugged in my laptop with VCDS diagnostics.

The faults listed were:

Misfire detected cylinder 1
Misfire detected cylinder 2
Short to ground injector 1
Short to ground injector 2
Short to ground secondary air pump


All looks a bit doesn't it? If I had taken the code reader faults at face value, I would be panicking about numerous faults, and / or wiring problems.

It was, in fact, a dead coil pack on cylinder 1, as I suspected. After replacement, and clearing all these codes, no new codes appeared after a drive.


So...yes, modern electronics and fault code readers are ok...but still no substitute for a bit of knowledge and common sense!

I completely agree, knowledge of the car can't be replaced by a £15 gadget, but the gadget certainly helps, as you say once something fails it often causes other sensor to read wrong values. I found it often helps to clear the codes, run the car up again then re-read them shortly after, guess I was lucky with the Golf

I think trying to set up the twin carbs to get them nicely balanced on my old Triumph is just as tricky as trying to fix my more modern car though.

[BGarside]

I'm tempted to buy an older car for this reason. Modern cars are too difficult to work on and difficult to diagnose.

I recall seeing a company called BBA remanufacturing in Car Mechanics mag. which can repair various electrical items, so if you can't find a suitable part online / in a scrapyard for cheap that might be an option.

[P-Jay]

I personally think car lifetimes has stayed pretty steady, maybe extended a bit.

If I cast my mind back to when I started driving in 2000, mid-late 80's cars were getting few and far between, and whilst yes if it had an ECU (I'd guess most low to mid range stuff was still on carbs on mechanical injection then) they could still give you a nightmare and it didn't seem to matter if it was a Ford or a Mercedes it would always cost "a grand".

But as someone else has said it was more than likely that it's demise would be announced by a solemn looking MOT tester who'd tell you the backseats were being kept off the floor by 2mm of rust and blind luck, or that the front suspension top mounts were about to touch in the middle.

I think the problem these days is of perception, 10-15 year old cars just don't look that old, it's a combination of 'brand awareness' meaning they don't change much visually and they just don't fall apart visually like they used to, so it seems like we're sending perfectly serviceable cars to the scrap yard, but truth is they're just a knackered as their forebears, they just don't look it.