RE: Flaming GT3s - owners bite back

[kambites]

errek72 said:

hondansx said:

Companies like Lotus should be capitalising on this.

Absolutely. When the first thought came up of buying a sportscar I compared owner reviews in my local market and was amazed of the criticism Porsche got, compared to what Lotus owners had to say. I never really considered a Porsche (no appeal to me), but if I had that would have been cured by reading what owners say on sites like planet9.

There's always going to be more complaints about Porsches than Lotuses because there's more Porsches than Lotuses and people have higher expectations of them. I'm absolutely sure that the average Porsche owner has less issues with the car than the average Lotus owner (although the Porsche issues might, on average, be more serious).

[errek72]

kambites said:

errek72 said:

hondansx said:

Companies like Lotus should be capitalising on this.

Absolutely. When the first thought came up of buying a sportscar I compared owner reviews in my local market and was amazed of the criticism Porsche got, compared to what Lotus owners had to say. I never really considered a Porsche (no appeal to me), but if I had that would have been cured by reading what owners say on sites like planet9.

There's always going to be more complaints about Porsches than Lotuses because there's more Porsches than Lotuses and people have higher expectations of them. I'm absolutely sure that the average Porsche owner has less issues with the car than the average Lotus owner (although the Porsche issues might, on average, be more serious).

You may be right but I was expecting the reverse. I was ready to read stories about Loti being delivered with pieces of the interior missing, geo being malaligned, bumper not fitting correctly, dodgy electrics etc. Except that were comments by Porsche owners. So that's what you're supposed to pay a premium for?

[Twinair]

I think the roots of this defect are in the so called 'Porsche production system'.

They have something in the VAG that tries to model the 'Toyota Business System', as a principle the TBS raises problems in the manufacture & use of the vehicle, see Toyota's recent recalls for evidence of same.

Toyota (deep in its leadership culture is humble) has a different ethos to manufacturing & owners, most, if not all, others are more growth & profit driven.

Hence - when issues like this arise - you see the UK being leveraged, and others not so much - but driven by the ethos of the supplier...

I can afford & was thinking of buying a 911 Turbo S... I'm not daft enough to think that one insight paints the entire thing as bad, but I will think long and hard before any possible jump in this direction...

I'd love to see the GT3 owners 'club a few hundred £k together' and stick it up VAG, I'm that kind of owner & I'd be happy to throw a few grand at something like this, just to watch them squirm...

Such fun, come on Porsche - start being humble & listening to the customer, after all, as the Toyota business system (which you are trying to emulate) says - the first principle is that 'the customer defines the value'...

Btw - this is not a party political broadcast by the 'buy a Toyota' party... I don't see the value of a Prius or whatever, the point is - this is a principle thing from the brand... Porsche are demonstrating lousy principles...

This will cost them...

[oilit]

Twinair said:

I think the roots of this defect are in the so called 'Porsche production system'.

They have something in the VAG that tries to model the 'Toyota Business System', as a principle the TBS raises problems in the manufacture & use of the vehicle, see Toyota's recent recalls for evidence of same.

Toyota (deep in its leadership culture is humble) has a different ethos to manufacturing & owners, most, if not all, others are more growth & profit driven.

Hence - when issues like this arise - you see the UK being leveraged, and others not so much - but driven by the ethos of the supplier...

I can afford & was thinking of buying a 911 Turbo S... I'm not daft enough to think that one insight paints the entire thing as bad, but I will think long and hard before any possible jump in this direction...

I'd love to see the GT3 owners 'club a few hundred £k together' and stick it up VAG, I'm that kind of owner & I'd be happy to throw a few grand at something like this, just to watch them squirm...

Such fun, come on Porsche - start being humble & listening to the customer, after all, as the Toyota business system (which you are trying to emulate) says - the first principle is that 'the customer defines the value'...

Btw - this is not a party political broadcast by the 'buy a Toyota' party... I don't see the value of a Prius or whatever, the point is - this is a principle thing from the brand... Porsche are demonstrating lousy principles...

This will cost them...

tons of companies have business processes - take a look at http://www.danaher.com/danaher-business-system as an example whom my neighbour works for. much of it centres around kaizan - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen but also japanese companies often use Keiretsu to help enable long term commitments and strategic alignment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiretsu Most western companies are too short term in view driven by personal greed and shareholder pressures to look at this stuff. The quick fast buck far more appealing. You only have to look back at the VAG corruption and bribery payments to understand the real culture within.

Edited by oilit on Saturday 26th April 11:54

[Eleven]

Twinair said:

I think the roots of this defect are in the so called 'Porsche production system'.

They have something in the VAG that tries to model the 'Toyota Business System', as a principle the TBS raises problems in the manufacture & use of the vehicle, see Toyota's recent recalls for evidence of same.

Toyota (deep in its leadership culture is humble) has a different ethos to manufacturing & owners, most, if not all, others are more growth & profit driven.

Hence - when issues like this arise - you see the UK being leveraged, and others not so much - but driven by the ethos of the supplier...

I can afford & was thinking of buying a 911 Turbo S... I'm not daft enough to think that one insight paints the entire thing as bad, but I will think long and hard before any possible jump in this direction...

I'd love to see the GT3 owners 'club a few hundred £k together' and stick it up VAG, I'm that kind of owner & I'd be happy to throw a few grand at something like this, just to watch them squirm...

Such fun, come on Porsche - start being humble & listening to the customer, after all, as the Toyota business system (which you are trying to emulate) says - the first principle is that 'the customer defines the value'...

Btw - this is not a party political broadcast by the 'buy a Toyota' party... I don't see the value of a Prius or whatever, the point is - this is a principle thing from the brand... Porsche are demonstrating lousy principles...

This will cost them...

Nicely written and articulate post, Twinair.

[andywebster2005]

Already has cost Porsche in one case and will in future...

I chose a TT RS instead of a Boxster/Cayman and I will choose a new R8 over the 911 (hopefully it will be turbo charged though!!)

[errek72]

Eleven said:

Nicely written and articulate post, Twinair.

+1, nail on the head. Looks like their business process has the wrong KPI's, hence managers getting bonuses for the wrong results, hence customers not coming anywhere near first.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Manufacturers like Kaiser and Isabella famously went bankrupt because their cars kept running, hence no new car sales. So since the fifties there is built-in obsolescence in each car. So like you say, all cars are designed to fail. But perhaps not in a ball of fire, when new.

[anonymous-user]

Recalls never happen to any other manufacturer. Apart from:

Jaguar
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/26/automobiles/harl...

Lotus
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/28/lotus-elise-exi...

Aston
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-06/ba...

Ferrari:
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/ferrari-458-ita...

The compensation brouhaha is a joke. No-one with a GT3 actually needs the thing for day to day use. It's not as if the family wagon was recalled. Apparently, (cue violins), they are demanding compensation for "deprecation, reduced warranty, insurance costs and lack of intended use".

Depreciation - frankly, when buying a used GT3, what affects its value is its stats on over-revving; not that it's had a new engine fitted by the factory.

Warranty - reduced in what way? In relation to the engine, the warranty will be extended from the date of fitting of the new engine.

Insurance costs: surely to God they have the brains to suspend their insurance during the period it's off the road?

Lack of intended use: oh poor poor you.

It's well for them they have nothing more significant to moan about.

You wouldn't catch an air-cooled fan bleating like these girls ...

[Macca993]

....

[Fireblade69]

For €175 a day, I'd be hoping they keep it for a couple of years.

Unless it was Porsche GB that is

[61GT]

"

tommy1973s said:

Recalls never happen to any other manufacturer. Apart from:

Jaguar
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/26/automobiles/harl...

Lotus
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/28/lotus-elise-exi...

Aston
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-06/ba...

Ferrari:
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/ferrari-458-ita...

The compensation brouhaha is a joke. No-one with a GT3 actually needs the thing for day to day use. It's not as if the family wagon was recalled. Apparently, (cue violins), they are demanding compensation for "deprecation, reduced warranty, insurance costs and lack of intended use".

Depreciation - frankly, when buying a used GT3, what affects its value is its stats on over-revving; not that it's had a new engine fitted by the factory.

Warranty - reduced in what way? In relation to the engine, the warranty will be extended from the date of fitting of the new engine.

Insurance costs: surely to God they have the brains to suspend their insurance during the period it's off the road?

Lack of intended use: oh poor poor you.

It's well for them they have nothing more significant to moan about.

You wouldn't catch an air-cooled fan bleating like these girls ...

Come off the fence and say what you really think!

[wtdoom]

tommy1973s said:

Recalls never happen to any other manufacturer. Apart from:

Jaguar
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/26/automobiles/harl...

Lotus
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/28/lotus-elise-exi...

Aston
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-06/ba...

Ferrari:
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/ferrari-458-ita...

The compensation brouhaha is a joke. No-one with a GT3 actually needs the thing for day to day use. It's not as if the family wagon was recalled. Apparently, (cue violins), they are demanding compensation for "deprecation, reduced warranty, insurance costs and lack of intended use".

Depreciation - frankly, when buying a used GT3, what affects its value is its stats on over-revving; not that it's had a new engine fitted by the factory.

Warranty - reduced in what way? In relation to the engine, the warranty will be extended from the date of fitting of the new engine.

Insurance costs: surely to God they have the brains to suspend their insurance during the period it's off the road?

Lack of intended use: oh poor poor you.

It's well for them they have nothing more significant to moan about.

You wouldn't catch an air-cooled fan bleating like these girls ...

Thank god for sanity , I thought I was the only one .
Just wait till the damn things fixed or return it . It's just a car and a toy one at that .
It's simple , what else is there ?

[pork911]

tommy1973s said:

You wouldn't catch an air-cooled fan bleating like these girls ...

They're not buying brand new

[k-ink]

tommy1973s said:

You wouldn't catch an air-cooled fan bleating like these girls ...

These guys are virtually mute compared to the McLaren MP4 levels of moaning!!

[QBee]

k-ink said:

tommy1973s said:

You wouldn't catch an air-cooled fan bleating like these girls ...

These guys are virtually mute compared to the McLaren MP4 levels of moaning!!

I do like a woman that moans....

[drpep]

MitchT said:

slipstream 1985 said:

with porsche making loads of cash on their 4x4 range will there come a point when these issues happena nd they just dont need to care?

Possibly, but more fool them if they do cease to care 'cause the SUV fad will end one day.

Christ I hope so. SUVs are such a waste of valuable petrol. Ensuring little Timmy gets to tennis practice does not require mummy to enshroud him in 2.5 tonnes of Range Rover/Cayenne/XC 90 Douchewagon.

This does seem rather poor form from Porsche. I've had very positive experiences with their customer service in the past, but this seems like a mis-coordinated, press-fuelled st-storm which is about to hit Zuffenhausen square in the face.

[Sierra Mike]

German owners have been offered more compensation than anyone else and yet the German media understands our message and says it's driven not by greed but equality. Some of our fellow British car enthusiasts however would rather support the notion that UK owners should stay quiet and receive nothing.

I started the Group but, since I've pledged all of my compensation from Porsche GB to registered charities, I'm obviously not doing it for personal gain. The Group is trying to help others who are getting nowhere with Porsche because I know first hand how bad it can be. My own treatment has been shockingly bad and I gave up any expectation of Porsche GB/OPC looking after me as a customer months ago.

Buying any new car, let alone a Porsche, should be a wonderful experience so, when things like this happen, the overall experience is tainted. The GT3 is an incredible car but, when I look at mine, I'm reminded how badly I was treated when buying it. The treatment went from bad to even worse on Friday to the extent that my business partner has refused delivery of his Turbo S in protest. His own buying experience has now become tainted and he doesn't want the car. Porsche needs to pull its finger out!

The caveat to this post is that my bad experience is probably at the extreme but many others' frustration levels are rising and with good reason. I hope the Group can make a difference because it's well intentioned and many members enjoy an excellent relationship with their dealers. As you may imagine, the Group has been contacted by many lawyers some of whom are offering their services pro bono because of the high profile nature of the case. Despite that, we've discouraged anyone from taking legal action hoping this can be resolved amicably to everyone's mutual satisfaction and benefit. We want everyone to put this in the past and enjoy their cars sooner rather than later.

Thing is, you only know how good/bad customer service is when you need it. Good job Porsche builds great cars so that you shouldn't have to find out how bad its customer service is, and worse yet, how little Porsche cares.

[Guvernator]

This might have been mentioned previously but their is a good reason why we in the UK almost always get short cahnged when it comes to customer service.

1) We are too small a market. Someone will have done the numbers and decided it's just not profitable in the long term to offer compensation the UK as the number of buyers just doesn't make it worth it, especially since...

2) Our good old British reserve means we don't like to kick up a fuss, this applies to service in a restaurant, just as much as it does to buying a £100k+ car. We need to take a look abroad to learn how to demand service and complain properly as far too often in this country we bend over and take it without complaint so we only have ourselves to blame.

[chelme]

@Governator

Not sure about your first point, but your second point is spot on.

[stevesingo]

update said:

The Porsche statement out of Germany doesn't alter that. "Porsche conducts business in 126 countries which are subject to unique circumstances," it reads. "Each of our worldwide subsidiaries and distributors is empowered by globally uniform information on a compensation procedure for GT3 customers, from which they can then take a locally relevant approach."
So essentially there is money, but it's up to each country how they spend it.

So Porsche AG have a scheme, but have allowed the regional distributors to decide if their market can take the PR hit without spending any money.

update said:

A Porsche UK spokesman told us the decision went down to each dealer. "Our Porsche Centres know their customers best and our network will be talking to their customers individually,"

In view of the above, Porsche UK have decided to not compensate owners because most of the current GT3 owners will comeback and buy the RS versions and any further replacement for the current 991 GT3. Why? Because in the UK status is king. Everyone must have the latest thing, even if someone is completely happy with their current 997.2 GT3, they will stil order a new 991, because they must have one. Same with with a lot of things from mobile phones, to mountain bikes to cars.