RE: Flaming GT3s - owners bite back
Discussion
chelme said:
Eleven said:
Oh.
SS7
Mr Trophy said:
Car wouldn't start and ended up getting taken away on a trailer the next again day.
£100k + car with only a few hunderd miles on it. Would I buy a Porsche? No chance.
With all due respect, and this appies to any car maker, how can you possibly make a judgement about the reliability of a make/model based on a sample size of 1?£100k + car with only a few hunderd miles on it. Would I buy a Porsche? No chance.
It could be the most reliable car in the world but you just so happened to get the duff one.
Guvernator said:
This might have been mentioned previously but their is a good reason why we in the UK almost always get short cahnged when it comes to customer service.
1) We are too small a market. Someone will have done the numbers and decided it's just not profitable in the long term to offer compensation the UK as the number of buyers just doesn't make it worth it, especially since...
2) Our good old British reserve means we don't like to kick up a fuss, this applies to service in a restaurant, just as much as it does to buying a £100k+ car. We need to take a look abroad to learn how to demand service and complain properly as far too often in this country we bend over and take it without complaint so we only have ourselves to blame.
I'd pretty much agree with this.1) We are too small a market. Someone will have done the numbers and decided it's just not profitable in the long term to offer compensation the UK as the number of buyers just doesn't make it worth it, especially since...
2) Our good old British reserve means we don't like to kick up a fuss, this applies to service in a restaurant, just as much as it does to buying a £100k+ car. We need to take a look abroad to learn how to demand service and complain properly as far too often in this country we bend over and take it without complaint so we only have ourselves to blame.
I'm sure markets like China are far more interesting to Porsche at the moment.
chelme said:
Eleven said:
Oh.
Given the price these go for, I guess I expected something a bit more hi tech than that, especially as the last time I had seen this set up was inside my washing machine.
Pan Pan said:
Must admit I was a bit surprised, when having a look at the engine bays of some Ferraris, the engine is of course a piece of art, but what surprised me was the heat shield on the rear of cabin bulkhead was a piece of what looked like diamond pattern aluminium foil, held in place by spiking it on to pins projecting from the bulkhead, and keeping it in place with cheap pressed steel star washers.
Given the price these go for, I guess I expected something a bit more hi tech than that, especially as the last time I had seen this set up was inside my washing machine.
I see where you're coming from - it should have a bit of theatre given he asking price - but the embossed aluminium sheet is very effective.Given the price these go for, I guess I expected something a bit more hi tech than that, especially as the last time I had seen this set up was inside my washing machine.
shoestring7 said:
Therefore as Porsche is rammed with engineers who are a lot more than half-decent, I suggest that there was no fundamental mechanical fault that should have been found in the development process.
SS7
Except that sadly for these chaps, there was! A loose rod in the engine apparently. Not the only problem Porsche have been guilty of failing to spot or correct it seems; IMS and/or RMS failures in the previous 986 996 variants, wheel centre locks collapsing on the 997GT3s, not to mention electrical gremlins and Nick Murray's car...SS7
As they say, you'd be a fool to buy one without a warranty. That says it all really. I wouldn't touch one unless it was either a 993 or the ones before (although I do have the desire for the 997 GT3s, so what I just said may not be entirely true it would have to have a warranty already in place)
Edited by chelme on Tuesday 29th April 13:38
Spoof said:
I've not read every post, so apologies if this has been posted before.
I've been following this poor guy for a while now. The plight of his 991
http://youtu.be/-eXUnZrykDY
I could listen to that guy all day. Crap situation but he presents it very well indeed.I've been following this poor guy for a while now. The plight of his 991
http://youtu.be/-eXUnZrykDY
Edited by Spoof on Tuesday 29th April 07:25
chelme said:
shoestring7 said:
Therefore as Porsche is rammed with engineers who are a lot more than half-decent, I suggest that there was no fundamental mechanical fault that should have been found in the development process.
SS7
Except that sadly for these chaps, there was! A loose rod in the engine apparently. Not the only problem Porsche have been guilty of failing to spot or correct it seems; IMS and/or RMS failures in the previous 986 996 variants, wheel centre locks collapsing on the 997GT3s, not to mention electrical gremlins and Nick Murray's car...SS7
As they say, you'd be a fool to buy one without a warranty. That says it all really. I wouldn't touch one unless it was either a 993 or the ones before (although I do have the desire for the 997 GT3s, so what I just said may not be entirely true it would have to have a warranty already in place)
Edited by chelme on Tuesday 29th April 13:38
it stands to reason therefore that either the problem is in a production process or that some components were subsequently changed/not to spec.
SS7
shoestring7 said:
I'll repeat myself for your benefit; if there was a problem with the design of 'loose' rods the very competent Porsche engineers would have discovered that in the development process, when they spend a lot of time trying to break them before customers do - both development and pre-production cars.
it stands to reason therefore that either the problem is in a production process or that some components were subsequently changed/not to spec.
SS7
Are you saying that the engines are put together not by engineers, but by robots or mechanics? Assuming that by 'production process' this is what you are referring to, and assuming you are correct (which is not a foregone conclusion) I would have thought that as an engineer, one would ensure the rod, as the case may be, would be engineered in such a way to avoid such a risk?it stands to reason therefore that either the problem is in a production process or that some components were subsequently changed/not to spec.
SS7
And if it is simply a 'production process' issue, why not simply tighten the rod and give the car back with the same engine? Why do they have to replace the entire engine? It all points to to an engineering issue to me.
Edited by chelme on Tuesday 29th April 14:59
chelme said:
Are you saying that the engines are put together not by engineers, but by robots or mechanics? Assuming that by 'production process' this is what you are referring to, and assuming you are correct (which is not a foregone conclusion) I would have thought that as an engineer, one would ensure the rod, as the case may be, would be engineered in such a way to avoid such a risk?
And if it is simply a 'production process' issue, why not simply tighten the rod and give the car back with the same engine? Why do they have to replace the entire engine? It all points to to an engineering issue to me.
Remember the Quantus Airbus A380 that was forced to land because the engine exploded. It was a part that didn't meet the design specification. Big issue for Rolls Royce at the time, but rectified in the same way as Porsche are doing with the 991 GT3 engine. Rectify and just to make sure, re-engineer the faulty component. In this case the con-rod bolt assembly.And if it is simply a 'production process' issue, why not simply tighten the rod and give the car back with the same engine? Why do they have to replace the entire engine? It all points to to an engineering issue to me.
Edited by chelme on Tuesday 29th April 14:59
shoestring7 said:
I'll repeat myself for your benefit; if there was a problem with the design of 'loose' rods the very competent Porsche engineers would have discovered that in the development process, when they spend a lot of time trying to break them before customers do - both development and pre-production cars.
it stands to reason therefore that either the problem is in a production process or that some components were subsequently changed/not to spec.
SS7
If it was merely a production process problem then it would have been sorted out by now. It could well be components not meeting spec but, again, that could easily and quickly be fixed for current cars and engineered out for future production. Sounds very much like a design problem to me that has to be designed out for the current engines as well as future production.it stands to reason therefore that either the problem is in a production process or that some components were subsequently changed/not to spec.
SS7
Porsche may well have very good development and product qualification processes but nothing is infallible. I work in a high tech aerospace industry and have seen development, pre-production and initial production kit pass everything thrown at them with flying colours only for failures to occur well into production. On investigation it was proven that tolerance build up was the problem where all individual components were to spec but in cases where each was at the limit of tolerance the complete assembly would fail under the most severe environment - a fundamental failure of design and a real headache to rectify!
griffgrog said:
Remember the Quantus Airbus A380 that was forced to land because the engine exploded. It was a part that didn't meet the design specification. Big issue for Rolls Royce at the time, but rectified in the same way as Porsche are doing with the 991 GT3 engine. Rectify and just to make sure, re-engineer the faulty component. In this case the con-rod bolt assembly.
RR also paid Qantas £58m in compensation.Years back I had an XJR Jag that suddenly developed a top end fault on a Saturday evening. Rang the Jag hotline and within half an hour a tow was at my house taking the thing away. Half an hour later a loan XJR was delivered to my door.
The whole process was so slick and fantastic it made me love the Jag brand in spite of the fact my relatively new in warranty car had let me down.
If Porsche had jumped on this early on with a nice fat cheque to all the owners they could have come out of it smelling of roses. If fact it would have turned the whole business into a massive positive PR exercise about why you should buy a Porsche instead of why you shouldn't. It would have been cheap in terms of marketing spend even at £10K a head
The whole process was so slick and fantastic it made me love the Jag brand in spite of the fact my relatively new in warranty car had let me down.
If Porsche had jumped on this early on with a nice fat cheque to all the owners they could have come out of it smelling of roses. If fact it would have turned the whole business into a massive positive PR exercise about why you should buy a Porsche instead of why you shouldn't. It would have been cheap in terms of marketing spend even at £10K a head
Harry H said:
Years back I had an XJR Jag that suddenly developed a top end fault on a Saturday evening. Rang the Jag hotline and within half an hour a tow was at my house taking the thing away. Half an hour later a loan XJR was delivered to my door.
The whole process was so slick and fantastic it made me love the Jag brand in spite of the fact my relatively new in warranty car had let me down.
If Porsche had jumped on this early on with a nice fat cheque to all the owners they could have come out of it smelling of roses. If fact it would have turned the whole business into a massive positive PR exercise about why you should buy a Porsche instead of why you shouldn't. It would have been cheap in terms of marketing spend even at £10K a head
800 cars affected, £10K a pop, that's £8m. Buys a fair amount of advertising.The whole process was so slick and fantastic it made me love the Jag brand in spite of the fact my relatively new in warranty car had let me down.
If Porsche had jumped on this early on with a nice fat cheque to all the owners they could have come out of it smelling of roses. If fact it would have turned the whole business into a massive positive PR exercise about why you should buy a Porsche instead of why you shouldn't. It would have been cheap in terms of marketing spend even at £10K a head
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