RE: Tesla Model S: Review
Discussion
98elise said:
Utter b
ks. Its been possible to do that sort of thing for decades. I've worked on systems from the late 70's that were doing more complex stuff than unding a few bolts and replacing a big box.
I was actually undewhelmed by the demo. You shouldn't even need to line the car up so carefully.
Its unlikely to happen because its not actually needed when you have 250-300 mile range (about 4-5hours driving) and a supercharge station can recharge in 40 minutes. If you need more capacity than that, then an EV is not for you.
I wasn't implying that machines don't have the capability, I was talking about the Model S specifically. It's not a matter of undoing a few bolts and dropping the battery pack out. From what I've read, it's a lot more complicated that that.ks. Its been possible to do that sort of thing for decades. I've worked on systems from the late 70's that were doing more complex stuff than unding a few bolts and replacing a big box.I was actually undewhelmed by the demo. You shouldn't even need to line the car up so carefully.
Its unlikely to happen because its not actually needed when you have 250-300 mile range (about 4-5hours driving) and a supercharge station can recharge in 40 minutes. If you need more capacity than that, then an EV is not for you.
The demo was nothing but political theatre, and it worked, temporarily, until they changed the way the credits would be implemented.
Durzel said:
Brilliant achievement, especially for an entrepreneur.
I don't think it's likely that the Tesla will be the car that we find ourselves using in the future though.
Like the iPad the real strength in it is in making other manufacturers with the infrastructure and money to make it cost effective (when does a £80k-£100k car achieve cost parity with a Golf Bluemotion etc?) wake up and realise the potential market, and drive competition.
Sadly I think there's not enough demand and not enough incentive (both consumers and manufacturers) for these things to be anything more than funky toys for the foreseeable future.
The harsh reality is that when you look at the current economics of the concept, for the average Joe, who comprises 99% of the driving public, if oil were to become scarce or taxes problematic it is far cheaper to switch to a tiny fossil fuelled car which has near 100mpg ability and for local shops to return and more bus routes to car parks (the place where most car journeys are to). I don't think it's likely that the Tesla will be the car that we find ourselves using in the future though.
Like the iPad the real strength in it is in making other manufacturers with the infrastructure and money to make it cost effective (when does a £80k-£100k car achieve cost parity with a Golf Bluemotion etc?) wake up and realise the potential market, and drive competition.
Sadly I think there's not enough demand and not enough incentive (both consumers and manufacturers) for these things to be anything more than funky toys for the foreseeable future.
The car itself should be cheaper to build and maintain as it is more mechanically simple but without a step change in battery tech it is currently hampered for the masses.
As an £80k barge that has outstanding performance, is something new, will fit the family, fit 100% of my 'barge' usage characteristics, without ever needing any form of remote charging facility, I find it a wonderful product but it does highlight quite clearly which section of society it is aimed at and it is the smallest section which means that in no way shape or form is it an Eco product.
canucklehead said:
Mr Gear said:
canucklehead said:
Stuff
Yeah, all that stuff has been discussed to death on different threads, and has absolutely nothing to do with the Tesla S road test.
mikEsprit said:
Mr Gear said:
mikEsprit said:
The car is nothing more than an expensive work commuter at this point since you can't do any real traveling with it. No thanks.
Ridiculous. I could drive one from London to Silverstone, do multiple laps of the track and then drive it home again without charging it.I could drive it from London to Newcastle without stopping. I could drive it to bloody Aberdeen in a day if I used a "supercharger" station for a few minutes on the way (and I'd certainly want to stretch my legs on that journey anyway!).
Honestly, what more do you want? My petrol-powered car has a range barely 50 miles more than a Tesla S.
TooMany2cvs said:
You ain't wrong. And let's assume that somehow every electric vehicle manufacturer manages to agree on a single standard battery pack, covering Smart-size up to Model S or Model X or even vans/trucks. So multiple packs fitted to bigger stuff.
Let's picture this "petrol station forecourt", with a dozen battery-swap "pumps". Everybody has to park very precisely (yeh, right, we've all seen the reality!). Then there's the underground mechanisms to move the batteries to and from the recharge bays. How many of them'd be required at a busy motorway services, to ensure there were always sufficient fully charged batteries available...? Each pulling fairly serious current, of course, to recharge quickly. There's no way the National Grid can currently support that! Even if the grid itself could, we're already facing power generation shortages over the next few decade or so, without the massive increase in demand that widespread use of electric cars for high-mileage users would bring.
And what about domestic power supplies? The transformer that serves my house and the seven-plus-farm around me is up a pole behind where I'm about to build a garage. It's brand spankin' new, only replaced this January by Western Power. It's single-phase only, fused at 100A, and rated to 200A maximum. How many 30A "fast" chargers (7kw, so 12hr to recharge an 85kwh Model S) is that going to support, without going ping every time somebody puts the kettle on?
Personally the battery swap concept and any form of remote charging are red herrings and not needed. Let's picture this "petrol station forecourt", with a dozen battery-swap "pumps". Everybody has to park very precisely (yeh, right, we've all seen the reality!). Then there's the underground mechanisms to move the batteries to and from the recharge bays. How many of them'd be required at a busy motorway services, to ensure there were always sufficient fully charged batteries available...? Each pulling fairly serious current, of course, to recharge quickly. There's no way the National Grid can currently support that! Even if the grid itself could, we're already facing power generation shortages over the next few decade or so, without the massive increase in demand that widespread use of electric cars for high-mileage users would bring.
And what about domestic power supplies? The transformer that serves my house and the seven-plus-farm around me is up a pole behind where I'm about to build a garage. It's brand spankin' new, only replaced this January by Western Power. It's single-phase only, fused at 100A, and rated to 200A maximum. How many 30A "fast" chargers (7kw, so 12hr to recharge an 85kwh Model S) is that going to support, without going ping every time somebody puts the kettle on?
In the UK the average car journey is less than 9 miles. The reality is that the crappest EV works perfectly for the vast majority of car owners in the UK in terms of range.
There are in fact only two core issues with EVs.
1. The potential market is restricted to those who can charge at home.
2. The cost of the batteries.
The PH massive always tends to look for problems rather than solutions so you will get people saying stupid things such as this product cannot work for anyone because I drive 500 miles a day or I don't have private parking.
People who drive more than a few miles a day are the statistical anomaly. Range isn't the issue.
Vast numbers of second cars in the UK live on driveways, are hatchbacks and only ever cover short journeys. They always use the home as their hub.
It is all about the money. They are a viable niche but until the cost of the new batteries and the concern of their replacement are dealt with they will remain a niche defined by those who aren't looking to save money but are looking for an alternative driving experience. It's why I suspect the performance or kudos EVs will outsell the utility ones.
DonkeyApple said:
People who drive more than a few miles a day are the statistical anomaly. Range isn't the issue.
Indeed. But they're also the ones who contribute least to the problem that electric cars are intended to solve. Add in the generation pollution, and electric cars aren't a solution at all - they merely move the combustion emissions about a bit.TooMany2cvs said:
DonkeyApple said:
People who drive more than a few miles a day are the statistical anomaly. Range isn't the issue.
Indeed. But they're also the ones who contribute least to the problem that electric cars are intended to solve. Add in the generation pollution, and electric cars aren't a solution at all - they merely move the combustion emissions about a bit.I would argue that targeting that second suburban runabout car, the one that does lots of short, inefficient, stop start journeys is the key to taking EVs from a niche to a segment. And that really the only valid issue stopping this today is price.
There are millions of such cars moving around all day in the suburban/urban environment, switching these to EVs which are actually the correct tool for this type of job will improve local air quality enormously.
DonkeyApple said:
TooMany2cvs said:
DonkeyApple said:
People who drive more than a few miles a day are the statistical anomaly. Range isn't the issue.
Indeed. But they're also the ones who contribute least to the problem that electric cars are intended to solve. Add in the generation pollution, and electric cars aren't a solution at all - they merely move the combustion emissions about a bit.Round my way on a wet winter holiday weekend when everyone puts the kettle on during nighttime TV all the electric goes off from time to time.
Wonder what its going to be like when most households are sucking massive amounts of energy off the grid.
Peak time stability is already an issue.
Wonder what its going to be like when most households are sucking massive amounts of energy off the grid.
Peak time stability is already an issue.
bp1000 said:
Round my way on a wet winter holiday weekend when everyone puts the kettle on during nighttime TV all the electric goes off from time to time.
Wonder what its going to be like when most households are sucking massive amounts of energy off the grid.
Peak time stability is already an issue.
Its entirely possible that an EV can solve this. The EV will charge off peak, and can discharge back into the home/grid if peaks demands are over capacity. Technically its quite simple.Wonder what its going to be like when most households are sucking massive amounts of energy off the grid.
Peak time stability is already an issue.
TooMany2cvs said:
DonkeyApple said:
TooMany2cvs said:
DonkeyApple said:
People who drive more than a few miles a day are the statistical anomaly. Range isn't the issue.
Indeed. But they're also the ones who contribute least to the problem that electric cars are intended to solve. Add in the generation pollution, and electric cars aren't a solution at all - they merely move the combustion emissions about a bit.DonkeyApple said:
I think you miss the point.
So it would seem. But I don't think it's being clarified, either.DonkeyApple said:
This isn't about outlyers driving to the centre of a commercial conurbation.
Oh, I'm sorry - I thought that was exactly what you were suggesting it was about.DonkeyApple said:
It's about people who live already in the suburban/urban environment and move around through the day within it. The car is the only efficient solution.
Cobblers, frankly. A half-way decent public transport system would do that job just fine and dandy. And, indeed, already does in most cities - especially London. Except, of course, it does rather expose one to mixing with poor people - and, of course, a £100k, 2.something ton car is absolutely required for that.So - let's get this straight...
This socking great big heavy XJ/A6-S-class rival is not ideal for long distance business use. It's not ideal for city centre use. It's main use is...
DonkeyApple said:
School run, differing shopping destinations, general errands. The P&R structure doesn't work for that. P&R works for destination journeys not general day to day local pottering which is what a very large number of second cars are used for.
...to allow Jemima to get little Tarquin and Isobel to their private nursery, to the hairdresser, then on to that _darling_ new restaurant with the girls, before doing a bit of light retail therapy, whilst Jeremy (whose company car it is) does his "something-in-the-city".Gotcha. So it's actually a Cayenne/X5 rival...?
I never thought I'd see the day when the Aston Cygnet seemed like a more logical solution...
TooMany2cvs said:
DonkeyApple said:
I think you miss the point.
So it would seem. But I don't think it's being clarified, either.DonkeyApple said:
This isn't about outlyers driving to the centre of a commercial conurbation.
Oh, I'm sorry - I thought that was exactly what you were suggesting it was about.DonkeyApple said:
It's about people who live already in the suburban/urban environment and move around through the day within it. The car is the only efficient solution.
Cobblers, frankly. A half-way decent public transport system would do that job just fine and dandy. And, indeed, already does in most cities - especially London. Except, of course, it does rather expose one to mixing with poor people - and, of course, a £100k, 2.something ton car is absolutely required for that.So - let's get this straight...
This socking great big heavy XJ/A6-S-class rival is not ideal for long distance business use. It's not ideal for city centre use. It's main use is...
DonkeyApple said:
School run, differing shopping destinations, general errands. The P&R structure doesn't work for that. P&R works for destination journeys not general day to day local pottering which is what a very large number of second cars are used for.
...to allow Jemima to get little Tarquin and Isobel to their private nursery, to the hairdresser, then on to that _darling_ new restaurant with the girls, before doing a bit of light retail therapy, whilst Jeremy (whose company car it is) does his "something-in-the-city".Gotcha. So it's actually a Cayenne/X5 rival...?
I never thought I'd see the day when the Aston Cygnet seemed like a more logical solution...
You still miss the point but I can now understand why. Bye.
DonkeyApple said:
Wow, that got angry and weirdly prejudice rather quickly.
No, not at all.I find the Model S pretty pointless, unless viewed as a cool bit of tech (which it is), and I completely fail to comprehend the question to which it's the right answer. You and others have offered several more-or-less mutually exclusive suggestions, and I was just attempting to find some composite which fitted them all.
I'm happy for you to explain why a £100k 2.something ton car that's unsuitable for long journeys, far too big for city use, but apparently just about _ideal_ for suburban pottering doesn't fit my gross over-simplification perfectly?
donteatpeople said:
It takes a fairly committed anti-electric stance to be that convinced a bus pass is preferable to a 400bhp RWD saloon.
I didn't say that _I_ would prefer the bus pass to a 400bhp RWD saloon, obviously. And I'm sure you and Donkey and everybody else would fall into the same category. But isn't that kinda the whole problem? Every bugger and their dog wants to tool around in a big heavy bulky car in city centres. It's not, umm, very sustainable and really doesn't hug too many bunnies. Fuel use and localised emissions aren't the only problem there, are they?Edited by TooMany2cvs on Thursday 29th May 16:21
Thought I would share what I have learned while researching buying an electric car for me:
ELECTRICITY POLLUTION: Something over 40% on average of UK comes from non-fossil sources, ie nuclear, hydro, wind, biomass, solar etc. QUite a number of EV owners seem to own home solar as well, so they end up offsetting part or all of their own consumption. 4.5 kw/h of electricity are required to refine a gallon of fuel anyway, so the pollution at point of use is far from the whole story. Even when charged with almost all fossil fuels based leccy, EVs are still cleaner and they will get cleaner through the years as more renewables come online. Compare that to many cars of just 5 or so years old spewing out soot on acceleration.
GRID CAPACITY: The electricity board in Ireland estimated that if ALL cars in Europe were EV and charged smartly (timed to the middle of the night), we would need at most 1% more generating capacity! Currently renewable energy is criminally wasted at night because we cannot store it. Wind turbines are frequently switched off, because they can be and Nuclear and Coal can't be. EVs help us use that capacity usefully.
Importantly, most EVs sold now can be timed on when they charge and with high capacity home charging (32 amp, same as an electric oven) you can charge a Nissan Leaf in 4 hours. That makes fitting in charging in the lowest points of demand easy. The technology exists to start and stop charging as necessary. The My Electric Avenue project is putting 10 Leaf into streets around the UK to test the impact on the grid. It is being run by a leccy company, the government, Nissan etc. They have chargers which talk to the local substation and turn off charging briefly if demand is heading too high. The aim is they perfect the algorithms to avoid anyone ever having an empty battery as a result.
Also EVs are perfectly able to put electricity back into the home or grid as well as take it. Some companies are looking at using tiny amount of overall battery capacity to help meet super peak demands (Coronation Street Commerical break in winter) etc.
BATTERY SWAP: Not going anywhere this technology. Far too many compromises. Battery swap stations are incredibly expensive and require massive amounts of leccy to keep the batteries topped up. It also means having a degree of standardisation of packs, if you don't then the logistics are mental. Standardising batteries means packaging is compromised (Leaf and Model S packs are formed under the car and have up and down bits for footwells etc.) It also means locking the technology, can't improve chemistry or materials each year because batteries and charging algorithms will be impacted.
CHARGING: Everyone likes to quote the maximum charging time, but these are largely irrelevant. Car is charged at night, you plug it in when you get home, you don't go to fuel stations like now for the vast majority of journeys. You will always get the lunar mileage people who say it won't work for them, but then nor would a Mitsi Evo, with the tiny range they have and vast fuel consumption. Horses for courses.
Fact is the vast majority of journeys are not that long and the Leaf, Model S and Zoe can all be easily fast charged. A 620 mile journey was mentioned, that would be max two stops in a Model S at Superchargers that they are installing now. Nissan have already put loads of quick chargers (over 200) in with Ecotricity, so you can recharge for free with wind energy. Yes you may have to stop for longer, but free fuel? They are popping up everywhere with Ikea and motorway service stations being the favourite locations, I have seen them at many of the motorway services I go to (electrichighway.co.uk)
When I borrowed a friend's Leaf for a weekend I did some journeys into London. I found I quick charged for about 10-15 minutes because I arrived at around half battery and took it up to 80%. That was about the time it took to have a wee, buy a coffee and buy a newspaper. OK, maybe a few mins longer, but shorter than going and doing that and then going to the fuel station bit of the services seperately.
Someone said the leccy bill goes up, yes it will, but a full charge on a Leaf or i3 is about £2 ish, probably about £6.50 on a Model S. That's for 80-100 miles on the Nissan Beamer and 250 for the Model S. Try doing the same in a dinofuel car...
ELECTRICITY POLLUTION: Something over 40% on average of UK comes from non-fossil sources, ie nuclear, hydro, wind, biomass, solar etc. QUite a number of EV owners seem to own home solar as well, so they end up offsetting part or all of their own consumption. 4.5 kw/h of electricity are required to refine a gallon of fuel anyway, so the pollution at point of use is far from the whole story. Even when charged with almost all fossil fuels based leccy, EVs are still cleaner and they will get cleaner through the years as more renewables come online. Compare that to many cars of just 5 or so years old spewing out soot on acceleration.
GRID CAPACITY: The electricity board in Ireland estimated that if ALL cars in Europe were EV and charged smartly (timed to the middle of the night), we would need at most 1% more generating capacity! Currently renewable energy is criminally wasted at night because we cannot store it. Wind turbines are frequently switched off, because they can be and Nuclear and Coal can't be. EVs help us use that capacity usefully.
Importantly, most EVs sold now can be timed on when they charge and with high capacity home charging (32 amp, same as an electric oven) you can charge a Nissan Leaf in 4 hours. That makes fitting in charging in the lowest points of demand easy. The technology exists to start and stop charging as necessary. The My Electric Avenue project is putting 10 Leaf into streets around the UK to test the impact on the grid. It is being run by a leccy company, the government, Nissan etc. They have chargers which talk to the local substation and turn off charging briefly if demand is heading too high. The aim is they perfect the algorithms to avoid anyone ever having an empty battery as a result.
Also EVs are perfectly able to put electricity back into the home or grid as well as take it. Some companies are looking at using tiny amount of overall battery capacity to help meet super peak demands (Coronation Street Commerical break in winter) etc.
BATTERY SWAP: Not going anywhere this technology. Far too many compromises. Battery swap stations are incredibly expensive and require massive amounts of leccy to keep the batteries topped up. It also means having a degree of standardisation of packs, if you don't then the logistics are mental. Standardising batteries means packaging is compromised (Leaf and Model S packs are formed under the car and have up and down bits for footwells etc.) It also means locking the technology, can't improve chemistry or materials each year because batteries and charging algorithms will be impacted.
CHARGING: Everyone likes to quote the maximum charging time, but these are largely irrelevant. Car is charged at night, you plug it in when you get home, you don't go to fuel stations like now for the vast majority of journeys. You will always get the lunar mileage people who say it won't work for them, but then nor would a Mitsi Evo, with the tiny range they have and vast fuel consumption. Horses for courses.
Fact is the vast majority of journeys are not that long and the Leaf, Model S and Zoe can all be easily fast charged. A 620 mile journey was mentioned, that would be max two stops in a Model S at Superchargers that they are installing now. Nissan have already put loads of quick chargers (over 200) in with Ecotricity, so you can recharge for free with wind energy. Yes you may have to stop for longer, but free fuel? They are popping up everywhere with Ikea and motorway service stations being the favourite locations, I have seen them at many of the motorway services I go to (electrichighway.co.uk)
When I borrowed a friend's Leaf for a weekend I did some journeys into London. I found I quick charged for about 10-15 minutes because I arrived at around half battery and took it up to 80%. That was about the time it took to have a wee, buy a coffee and buy a newspaper. OK, maybe a few mins longer, but shorter than going and doing that and then going to the fuel station bit of the services seperately.
Someone said the leccy bill goes up, yes it will, but a full charge on a Leaf or i3 is about £2 ish, probably about £6.50 on a Model S. That's for 80-100 miles on the Nissan Beamer and 250 for the Model S. Try doing the same in a dinofuel car...
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