RE: Tesla Model S: Review
Discussion
98elise said:
Their next car after the Model X is supposed be a $30-40k family car. Thats top end mondeo money. The shame is that the S is not in full production yet, and the X is still a prototype, so we're a few years from the next car.
Tesla are already turning a profit as a company with the Model S, and they are using a small fraction of their factory space to build it. They have their sights on the mass market, and they are one company that can do it.
They just posted q1 results of $49.8 M net loss. That said they are spending lots on R&D and are production limited.Tesla are already turning a profit as a company with the Model S, and they are using a small fraction of their factory space to build it. They have their sights on the mass market, and they are one company that can do it.
As a piston head through and through and someone who services their own ICE vehicles ( I have cars and bikes) I bought a Tesla S:-
1) Have you ever got to work on a modern diesel engine, we are squirting in flammable liquid, controlling the explosion,the heat, the noise dealing with the useless torque spread with different gear ratios, holding the emissions in a tight envelope and performing regular preventative maintenance to keep it all together.....the complexity level is now madness!
2) Real world performance is acceleration, (any thing that can do 130mph is enough to get a jail sentence) more precisely its responsiveness at any speed, no ICE can do what the electric motor does the S is staggering.
3) After 5 years I will have run the S for free (Ok im taking a gamble on the depreciation but if Elon Musk was willing to taking the S**t or bust gamble he took I think mine pales into insignificance)
4) I will put solar panel's on the house so Im carbon neutral essentially running the car on the sun and the solar payback in 5 years anyway. Even without solar Im making a 1/5 to 1/10 less CO2 compared to an ICE.
5) Tesla have stopped the chicken and egg question, for some of us we can run the electric car now, infrastructure will follow, more sales will follow giving more infrastructure. The electrics will push the ICEs to even better economy to survive. The markets will determine the outcome, much like Fords model T it takes vision and balls to start the ball rolling.
The ball is rolling what the outcome is who knows probably a mixture of all propulsion types but its highly likely to be less CO2 and the more action we can take to reduce the risks of a meltdown of our planet the better. I accept no one can be sure we are part of the problem but for me there is no gamble Im getting an S as it jumps off the line like nothing else, if I can be saving the planet by accident at the same time then everyone's happy!
1) Have you ever got to work on a modern diesel engine, we are squirting in flammable liquid, controlling the explosion,the heat, the noise dealing with the useless torque spread with different gear ratios, holding the emissions in a tight envelope and performing regular preventative maintenance to keep it all together.....the complexity level is now madness!
2) Real world performance is acceleration, (any thing that can do 130mph is enough to get a jail sentence) more precisely its responsiveness at any speed, no ICE can do what the electric motor does the S is staggering.
3) After 5 years I will have run the S for free (Ok im taking a gamble on the depreciation but if Elon Musk was willing to taking the S**t or bust gamble he took I think mine pales into insignificance)
4) I will put solar panel's on the house so Im carbon neutral essentially running the car on the sun and the solar payback in 5 years anyway. Even without solar Im making a 1/5 to 1/10 less CO2 compared to an ICE.
5) Tesla have stopped the chicken and egg question, for some of us we can run the electric car now, infrastructure will follow, more sales will follow giving more infrastructure. The electrics will push the ICEs to even better economy to survive. The markets will determine the outcome, much like Fords model T it takes vision and balls to start the ball rolling.
The ball is rolling what the outcome is who knows probably a mixture of all propulsion types but its highly likely to be less CO2 and the more action we can take to reduce the risks of a meltdown of our planet the better. I accept no one can be sure we are part of the problem but for me there is no gamble Im getting an S as it jumps off the line like nothing else, if I can be saving the planet by accident at the same time then everyone's happy!
Edited by slartybartfarst on Sunday 1st June 13:36
theJT said:
Charging aside, this all looks brilliant.
All accept that touch screen. I've said it before, but touch screens are a DISEASE in cars. How on earth am I meant to change the air con settings whilst driving along with that... thing. Gimme back my physical buttons!
Thats what i thought till you try it i hate bad ergonomics but they have engineered the touch screen for the purpose, its bright, fast reacting and honestly easier to use than BMWs I drive. In other words its a touch screen but not all touch screens are the same you have to try it. Given it will be updated with free down loads if its not perfect now it will be in a year or two...it seems dare i say it better for me its certainly no worse than conventional attempts.All accept that touch screen. I've said it before, but touch screens are a DISEASE in cars. How on earth am I meant to change the air con settings whilst driving along with that... thing. Gimme back my physical buttons!
slartybartfarst said:
theJT said:
Charging aside, this all looks brilliant.
All accept that touch screen. I've said it before, but touch screens are a DISEASE in cars. How on earth am I meant to change the air con settings whilst driving along with that... thing. Gimme back my physical buttons!
Thats what i thought till you try it i hate bad ergonomics but they have engineered the touch screen for the purpose, its bright, fast reacting and honestly easier to use than BMWs I drive. In other words its a touch screen but not all touch screens are the same you have to try it. Given it will be updated with free down loads if its not perfect now it will be in a year or two...it seems dare i say it better for me its certainly no worse than conventional attempts.All accept that touch screen. I've said it before, but touch screens are a DISEASE in cars. How on earth am I meant to change the air con settings whilst driving along with that... thing. Gimme back my physical buttons!
Saying something is better than iDrive is similar to suggesting that AIDS is better than Ebola.
one may clearly be the better of the two but neither are desperately desirable. The only saving grace of the iDrive is that the satnav is so totally redundant in the UK that you never actually have to use it.
kambites said:
Hmm, that's not how the setups I've used have worked - my parents used to use it for night storage heaters and they were on an entirely separate meter with its own consumer unit. Things like the lights and ring mains couldn't be used at the lower rates.
I've worked on energy billing systems for two different electric cos. I think you are confusing time switches that controls the storage heaters coming on and off with the time switch that controls which meter is being accumulated to. There are some electric heating only tariffs but by far the most common in E7 which is available through the house for running tumble dryers, immersion heaters or indeed charging an EV at about 6 to 8p per kWh instead of 14-18p kWh (ranges are down to suppliers location and tariff you are on).Last one I just finished a contract at is doing heavy research into Smart grid technologies. As people have mentioned earlier using EVs to shave peak load off powerstations, Theres time in early afternoon when EVs could be charged cheaper and then as long as they know the range you need to get home can pinch a bit of the leccy back when the evening peak comes in. What is going on at the moment is the design if the messaging standards for all the devides to talk to eash other, anything from your fridge freezer shutting down for a an hour or your EV negotioating a price for the electric they need to use. Given peak rate electric can go on the wholesale market for upto £1/kWh you might be able to make a tidy profit buying it at 8p at night then selling back for maybe just a bit less than a quid!
DonkeyApple said:
slartybartfarst said:
theJT said:
Charging aside, this all looks brilliant.
All accept that touch screen. I've said it before, but touch screens are a DISEASE in cars. How on earth am I meant to change the air con settings whilst driving along with that... thing. Gimme back my physical buttons!
Thats what i thought till I tried it. I hate bad ergonomics but they have engineered the touch screen for the purpose, its bright, fast reacting and honestly easier to use than BMWs I drive. In other words its a touch screen but not all touch screens are the same you have to try it. Given it will be updated with free down loads if its not perfect now it will be in a year or two...it seems dare i say it better for me its certainly no worse than conventional attempts.All accept that touch screen. I've said it before, but touch screens are a DISEASE in cars. How on earth am I meant to change the air con settings whilst driving along with that... thing. Gimme back my physical buttons!
Saying something is better than iDrive is similar to suggesting that AIDS is better than Ebola.
one may clearly be the better of the two but neither are desperately desirable. The only saving grace of the iDrive is that the satnav is so totally redundant in the UK that you never actually have to use it.
It makes complete sense to arrange controls so that the most safety critical and/or commonly used are the most tactile and to hand but despite owning the same car for 8 years I still have to glance away to confirm a control action/location for 70% of the things I want to do.
From my test drive I was prepared to forget any chance of purchase if that screen was unworkable but it was just not the problem I had envisaged as the display was customisable and reacted from the steering wheels controls.
Couple that to the ability to place up on the instrument area the information you require including a unbelievably good sat nav system ( I use Sat Nav a lot) and it may actually for me be better.
Im not of the I pad generation but I think comparatively speaking all cars now have a major amount of non tactile functions. Have Tesla have gone too far?
I going to find out!
I still don't get it. Exactly what is so astonishing with Tesla? That it is bigger than the usual EVs? Or the longer range it can drive? But shouldn't it do that considering a Tesla costs much more than other EVs? What high tech does it have? When Motor Trend compared it with the new S-class (which is a bit cheaper than Tesla) Tesla did not even have some of the basic safety features found in today's economy cars. It was far from the myriad of all advanced safety and comfort systems found in S-class such as magic ride. Having a big Ipad is not equal to high tech.
Other companies started with cheaper model EVs and have sold a large number of them and even hybrids like Prius that have sold over 5 million. Tesla started at the other end with expensive luxury EVs and soon a SUV. The market for pure electric cars is picking up and soon there will be many cars in Tesla's segment. According to Edmundsvideo the vast majority of Tesla owners have both a second and third car, often high performance German luxury gas cars. In Norway, the only other major Tesla market, they can buy it for half price since they don't have to pay the usual taxes. Soon these subsidies will end as government wants it's money, as always. In Sweden already most of the advantages of having a environmentally friendly car (lower emissions) have been withdrawn as their numbers grew.
Other companies started with cheaper model EVs and have sold a large number of them and even hybrids like Prius that have sold over 5 million. Tesla started at the other end with expensive luxury EVs and soon a SUV. The market for pure electric cars is picking up and soon there will be many cars in Tesla's segment. According to Edmundsvideo the vast majority of Tesla owners have both a second and third car, often high performance German luxury gas cars. In Norway, the only other major Tesla market, they can buy it for half price since they don't have to pay the usual taxes. Soon these subsidies will end as government wants it's money, as always. In Sweden already most of the advantages of having a environmentally friendly car (lower emissions) have been withdrawn as their numbers grew.
Bezor said:
I still don't get it. Exactly what is so astonishing with Tesla? That it is bigger than the usual EVs? Or the longer range it can drive? But shouldn't it do that considering a Tesla costs much more than other EVs? What high tech does it have? When Motor Trend compared it with the new S-class (which is a bit cheaper than Tesla) Tesla did not even have some of the basic safety features found in today's economy cars. It was far from the myriad of all advanced safety and comfort systems found in S-class such as magic ride. Having a big Ipad is not equal to high tech.
Other companies started with cheaper model EVs and have sold a large number of them and even hybrids like Prius that have sold over 5 million. Tesla started at the other end with expensive luxury EVs and soon a SUV. The market for pure electric cars is picking up and soon there will be many cars in Tesla's segment. According to Edmundsvideo the vast majority of Tesla owners have both a second and third car, often high performance German luxury gas cars. In Norway, the only other major Tesla market, they can buy it for half price since they don't have to pay the usual taxes. Soon these subsidies will end as government wants it's money, as always. In Sweden already most of the advantages of having a environmentally friendly car (lower emissions) have been withdrawn as their numbers grew.
Because its the first one that insn't really compromised in some way (unless you are one of the many PH members that do 600 miles per day with only splash and dash) and its priced about the same as its peers. They are making a car people want to buy, and thats all that counts.Other companies started with cheaper model EVs and have sold a large number of them and even hybrids like Prius that have sold over 5 million. Tesla started at the other end with expensive luxury EVs and soon a SUV. The market for pure electric cars is picking up and soon there will be many cars in Tesla's segment. According to Edmundsvideo the vast majority of Tesla owners have both a second and third car, often high performance German luxury gas cars. In Norway, the only other major Tesla market, they can buy it for half price since they don't have to pay the usual taxes. Soon these subsidies will end as government wants it's money, as always. In Sweden already most of the advantages of having a environmentally friendly car (lower emissions) have been withdrawn as their numbers grew.
They are going to build a much cheaper car in the next few years.
98elise said:
Because its the first one that insn't really compromised in some way (unless you are one of the many PH members that do 600 miles per day with only splash and dash) and its priced about the same as its peers. They are making a car people want to buy, and thats all that counts.
Other than the main overiding thing when buying a car which is purchase price? Its the very reason the cheaper cars (i3,LEAF,Zoe) only do ~90 miles.Bezor said:
I still don't get it. Exactly what is so astonishing with Tesla? That it is bigger than the usual EVs? Or the longer range it can drive?
'course, there's no other EV really quite like the Tesla. It's a big barge, others are "more normal" size (by Euro standards).I took the Wikipedia range/weight/battery capacity for the i3/Leaf/S/Zoe and Twizy, and fiddled about to try to level the playing field. They're vastly different in terms of all three, of course. So interesting comparisons...
Absolute range isn't that interesting. It's like absolute range on an internal combustion car - shove a big enough fuel tank in, and it'll go round the world without refilling. The only time it's interesting on an electric is when it comes to recharge times, which say nothing about the _efficiency_.
What's more interesting from that angle is how far will each one take you on 1KwH?
The Leaf and the Tesla are almost identical, at 3.1 miles - bottom of the pack.
The Twizy is, obviously, top - more than three times as far, 10.2 miles.
The i3 is a bit better than the Leaf/Tesla, 3.7, whilst the Leaf's almost twice as far - 5.9 miles.
But that ignores weight. Surely, for two vehicles of the same weight, the one getting a better range per kwh is more efficient, right?
So we've got an easy comparison - the Leaf and Zoe are within a few kg of each other, yet the Zoe gets damn near double the range.
If we look at the Range/KwH per tonne, we're adjusting that range/kwh for the weight by saying "If a car of identical efficiency weighed one ton, what range would it get pre kwh?". The Twizy (4.6 miles), i3 (4.4 miles) and Leaf (4.7 miles) are almost identical. The i-MIEV and Smart are the same ballpark, too. The Tesla is indeed a bit better - 6.6 miles per kwh from a theoretical one tonne Model S. But the Zoe...? 8.7 miles from each KwH.
So, no, the S isn't _that_ exceptional in terms of efficiency. Certainly a long way from being a game-changer. It's not even the best currently on the market, by a fairly long chalk.
But what it IS is "cool".
kambites said:
I think the exceptional thing about the Tesla is its price - it's the first pure EV which competes directly (near enough) with its ICE powered counterparts rather than being massively more expensive to buy.
People in general are fairly conservative when it comes to styling/gimmicksSo a comfy saloon that does not try and stand out, but offers attractive looks and standard conveniences without being in any way compromised is going to be successful.
As technology improves and becomes cheaper, you will see car's like the model S come down in price further.
TooMany2cvs said:
Lots of stuff
Where were you getting your figures from? Real-world data that I have looked at suggests that the Leaf and Zoe are very close on efficiency - Leaf 18.28 kWh/100km, Zoe 17.91 kWh/100km (source: Spritmonitor.de). The same source has the Twizy at 9.02 kWh/100km and the Tesla at 22.08 kWh/100km.Edited by AnotherClarkey on Tuesday 3rd June 09:57
JonnyVTEC said:
We all know that superchargers screw the batteries up aswell compared to conventional charging rates?
I thought Li-Ion cells are OK being charged quickly as long as they're at the right temperature. I assume the fast-chargers somehow maintain optimal battery temperature as they charge? Fast-charging at low-temperatures is certainly a bad idea. We've got loads of these over here in Norway with a humungous waiting list for them. They are beautiful cars. Advantage here is that many workplaces have installed free charging points, there are free charging points in town, the road tax is free and there are no road tolls or ferry costs to pay as they are free too. Big incentives to buy them. Some of the models are amongst the nicest cars I've seen on the road.
TransverseTight said:
I've worked on energy billing systems for two different electric cos. I think you are confusing time switches that controls the storage heaters coming on and off with the time switch that controls which meter is being accumulated to. There are some electric heating only tariffs but by far the most common in E7 which is available through the house for running tumble dryers, immersion heaters or indeed charging an EV at about 6 to 8p per kWh instead of 14-18p kWh (ranges are down to suppliers location and tariff you are on).
It was definitely a heating only tariff - two independent meters and consumer units; the main night-storage (block-heating) elements could not be turned on during the day, although they had separate heating elements on the main meter which could - the "radiators" were wired into two independent circuits coming from the different consumer units. I thought it was E7, but presumably not. 
kambites said:
I think the exceptional thing about the Tesla is its price - it's the first pure EV which competes directly (near enough) with its ICE powered counterparts rather than being massively more expensive to buy.
As a product it highlights where an EV can currently compete in a core segment without needing heavy subsidies. Most EVs have targeted the lower end of the car buyer spectrum where at present they just aren't competitive without subsidies.
It's a family sized car that can do a proper daily commute and a lot of weekend outings.
I think it is the first competent competitor in a specific segment.
But it will be the ability to produce competitive second cars, ie the local shopping trolly that will be the real game hanger for this segment as the benefits to everyone are considerable. Suburban noise reduction, cleaner air in high population areas etc. the products that already exist work for the vast majority of typical users but it is the cost that is too high and uncompetitive at this lower level.
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