RE: Tesla Model S: Review
Discussion
The speed of progress at Tesla is amazing....reminds me a bit of McLaren. These younger companies seem to react very quickly with updates....Tesla will crack that range problem I am sure of it and then what excuse will people have for not ditching their stinky old diesel luxo barges?
kapiteinlangzaam said:
GreenArrow said:
and then what excuse will people have for not ditching their stinky old diesel luxo barges?
The £80k price tag might be a sticking point for some. 
kapiteinlangzaam said:
I agree.
But it wont steal (many) sales from the £40-50k market IMO at double(ish) the price.
And as it stands, an £80k RRP is a bloody good reason for most people not to buy one.
A slightly smaller model with a 300bhp motor (5 series competitor), with a 4-500 mile range and an attainable lease price of about £400 per month will see a sales explosion.
At £80k they will remain an expensive (but awesome) curiosity.
The Tesla S70 is 315bhp, 0-60 in 5.5 and £55K with Leather, Autopilot and probably another option or two. So already competing pretty well with the £40-50K ICE market, surely, when petrol is taken into account?But it wont steal (many) sales from the £40-50k market IMO at double(ish) the price.
And as it stands, an £80k RRP is a bloody good reason for most people not to buy one.
A slightly smaller model with a 300bhp motor (5 series competitor), with a 4-500 mile range and an attainable lease price of about £400 per month will see a sales explosion.
At £80k they will remain an expensive (but awesome) curiosity.
The £80K is for the top-end model (which is £75K plus options)
kapiteinlangzaam said:
Cheaper than I thought then.
If Tesla can successfully manage the market expansion in to slightly smaller and cheaper models, their future will be bright.
Until mainstream manufacturers decide to build premium EVs and then their profit margins will be wiped out and they will go bust. If Tesla can successfully manage the market expansion in to slightly smaller and cheaper models, their future will be bright.
If Tesla succeed in creating the market then they will fail and be subsumed by someone bigger.
simonwhite said:
The Tesla S70 is 315bhp, 0-60 in 5.5 and £55K with Leather, Autopilot and probably another option or two. So already competing pretty well with the £40-50K ICE market, surely, when petrol is taken into account?
The £80K is for the top-end model (which is £75K plus options)
I hear you, but to make it special, second gen leather, panoramic roof, 21" wheels (£3800 !! ) and air suspension take you to £70k.The £80K is for the top-end model (which is £75K plus options)
However at entry level £55k buys you alot of BM/Merc with all the toys.
It is getting ever closer now....
RichB said:
iven the electricity does have to be generated, who actually does pay for it? Surely these cars are cannot be free to run?
Tesla do. I guess the cost of electricity over the lifetime of the vehicle is viewed as trivial compared to the cost of the car? Not many people will use the Super Chargers regularly. Charging at home, obviously the owner does but it's very cheap compared to petrol, partly because it doesn't have huge amounts of tax on it and partly because power stations are inherently a lot more efficient than ICEs in cars.
kambites said:
RichB said:
iven the electricity does have to be generated, who actually does pay for it? Surely these cars are cannot be free to run?
Tesla do. I guess the cost of electricity over the lifetime of the vehicle is viewed as trivial compared to the cost of the car? Not many people will use the Super Chargers regularly. p.s. There's a bloke in the office building I rent who has a Mitsubushi EV 4x4 of some kind and he charges it up by dangling an extension cable out of an upstairs window then dropping it down into the car park below and plugging it in. What a faf and potentially dangerous if it's raining. I guess he's being a cheapskate by using office power instead of his own but I couldn't be bothered with all that.
Edited by RichB on Tuesday 21st July 09:08
RichB said:
iven the electricity does have to be generated, who actually does pay for it? Surely these cars are cannot be free to run?
Tesla super charger network is free for life, though in my 4 month EV experience, I'd rarely use it - in fact I'm yet to use a public charging station (though car has only ~90 mile range which changes my usage profile).Realistically, the majority of juice is going to come from your domestic supply. 1kwh costs in the region of 12p if you're on a decent deal. Believe this will get you in the region of 3-4 miles in a Tesla (my Leaf has averaged 4.5 over 1500 miles). So cost per mile is about 3.5p in Tesla. My 3.0 cdi Merc averages about 35mpg in similar use. 1l of diesel currently £1.14, so £5.18 per gallon. That's 14.8p per mile.
I'd suggest that EV users also look at domestic PV panels. Good feeling to plug in the EV (tickle charger) on a sunny day and see the electric meter still shining red (exporting).
RichB said:
p.s. There's a bloke in the office building I rent who has a Mitsubushi EV 4x4 of some kind and he charges it up by dangling an extension cable out of an upstairs window then dropping it down into the car park below and plugging it in. What a faf and potentially dangerous if it's raining. I guess he's being a cheapskate by using office power instead of his own but I couldn't be bothered with all that.
Whilst you can get extension leads designed to be safe to use in the rain, it probably isn't one so yes that's daft. As and when we get one, it'll be charged in our garage 99% of the time. The interior is very disappointing for a car aimed at the luxury market. More than this, its quite embarrasing, not only the infamous horrible screen but pretty much everything inside the car is dated looking and cheap. With the other drawbacks I dont see this as a serious buying proposition.
The roadster was howeever a much nicer put together car and place to be. A shame its out of production.
The roadster was howeever a much nicer put together car and place to be. A shame its out of production.
Yeah the screen is a stupid idea.
In fact touch screens and menu driven systems in cars are just a stupid idea in general, IMO. I'd far rather have lots of buttons which I can find by touch. It's the way that all cars seem to be going though, Tesla are just a little bit "ahead" of the rest of the market.
In fact touch screens and menu driven systems in cars are just a stupid idea in general, IMO. I'd far rather have lots of buttons which I can find by touch. It's the way that all cars seem to be going though, Tesla are just a little bit "ahead" of the rest of the market.
Which Tesla owners have considered using their car to power their home?
The battery pack is large enough to run most domestic properties.
If you get free charging at work, for example, then you could use that to power the home at night.
This is one of the big future advantages of large numbers of EVs on the road as not only do they smooth out Grid demands making the Grid more efficient but they also offer alternative domestic power solutions.
The battery pack is large enough to run most domestic properties.
If you get free charging at work, for example, then you could use that to power the home at night.
This is one of the big future advantages of large numbers of EVs on the road as not only do they smooth out Grid demands making the Grid more efficient but they also offer alternative domestic power solutions.
onedsla said:
Realistically, the majority of juice is going to come from your domestic supply. 1kwh costs in the region of 12p if you're on a decent deal. Believe this will get you in the region of 3-4 miles in a Tesla (my Leaf has averaged 4.5 over 1500 miles). So cost per mile is about 3.5p in Tesla. My 3.0 cdi Merc averages about 35mpg in similar use. 1l of diesel currently £1.14, so £5.18 per gallon. That's 14.8p per mile.
That's interesting, thanks... DonkeyApple said:
Which Tesla owners have considered using their car to power their home?
The battery pack is large enough to run most domestic properties.
If you get free charging at work, for example, then you could use that to power the home at night.
This is one of the big future advantages of large numbers of EVs on the road as not only do they smooth out Grid demands making the Grid more efficient but they also offer alternative domestic power solutions.
An amusing thought but the broader economics of this don't work for the future. Once we reach a point where sufficient people are using EVs to be noticeable the treasury will have to gain income (tax) from EV road users in other ways. I don't know what the breakpoint is but given that I only ever see 2 EVs in may daily routine, one on the estate where I live and one at work it suggests that currently the ratio must be 1000s to 1 for ICE. Say that swings to 25% or 30% (or less?) what will be the effect on income from loss of fuel duty? Add to that that the massive additional load on the the generating capacity and I wonder what the situation will be in say 20 years time if everyone drives EVs? I suggest nothing will be free, charging points will be taxed and the government will be screaming to build atomic power stations to cope with the load. Possibly not the utopian dream of everyone driving cars powered by clean, free energy. The battery pack is large enough to run most domestic properties.
If you get free charging at work, for example, then you could use that to power the home at night.
This is one of the big future advantages of large numbers of EVs on the road as not only do they smooth out Grid demands making the Grid more efficient but they also offer alternative domestic power solutions.
RichB said:
An amusing thought but the broader economics of this don't work for the future. Once we reach a point where sufficient people are using EVs to be noticeable the treasury will have to gain income (tax) from EV road users in other ways. I don't know what the breakpoint is but given that I only ever see 2 EVs in may daily routine, one on the estate where I live and one at work it suggests that currently the ratio must be 1000s to 1 for ICE. Say that swings to 25% or 30% (or less?) what will be the effect on income from loss of fuel duty? Add to that that the massive additional load on the the generating capacity and I wonder what the situation will be in say 20 years time if everyone drives EVs? I suggest nothing will be free, charging points will be taxed and the government will be screaming to build atomic power stations to cope with the load. Possibly not the utopian dream of everyone driving cars powered by clean, free energy.
I think they'll just move the taxation onto the roads themselves. As long as they are charged at night, the grid has enough current off-peak capacity (even taking into account shut-downs required for maintenance) to cover almost all of the UK's privately driven miles. We certainly have enough generational capacity to deal with the number of cars which are realistically going to go electric in the next 20 years or so.
One other thing worth pointing out is that the electricity required to refine crude into other things is surprisingly significant. Of course we also get other things such as plastics out of that refinement process so it's hard to put a number on it but the effect on the grid of swapping ICE powered cars to EVs will ultimately be a bit less than the actual electricity used to charge them.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 21st July 11:21
kambites said:
RichB said:
An amusing thought but the broader economics of this don't work for the future. Once we reach a point where sufficient people are using EVs to be noticeable the treasury will have to gain income (tax) from EV road users in other ways. I don't know what the breakpoint is but given that I only ever see 2 EVs in may daily routine, one on the estate where I live and one at work it suggests that currently the ratio must be 1000s to 1 for ICE. Say that swings to 25% or 30% (or less?) what will be the effect on income from loss of fuel duty? Add to that that the massive additional load on the the generating capacity and I wonder what the situation will be in say 20 years time if everyone drives EVs? I suggest nothing will be free, charging points will be taxed and the government will be screaming to build atomic power stations to cope with the load. Possibly not the utopian dream of everyone driving cars powered by clean, free energy.
I think they'll just move the taxation onto the roads themselves. RichB said:
Almost certainly although that would be difficult for anythingn other than main roads
As long as they are charged at night, the grid has enough current off-peak capacity (even taking into account shut-downs required for maintenance) to cover almost all of the UK's privately driven miles. We certainly have enough generational capacity to deal with the number of cars which are realistically going to go electric in the next 20 years or so. RichB said:
I didn't know that but never done the research. I guess it's possible to calculate the power expended on petrol and diesel combined and convert that to kilowatts?
One other thing worth pointing out is that the electricity required to refine crude into other things is surprisingly significant. Of course we also get other things such as plastics out of that refinement process so it's hard to put a number on it but the effect on the grid of swapping ICE powered cars to EVs will ultimately be a bit less than the actual electricity used to charge them. RichB said:
true
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