RE: Price hike: PH Blog
Discussion
In all a brilliant thread, lots of really chunky sensible comment. There's no point bemoaning the missed opportunity or passed-over £10k E30M or £40k 964 RS. Those particular gold-plated and copper-bottomed ships have sailed. Yes the market is more air than anything else but now it's all about the finding the Next Big (But Cheap-ish) Thing.
944S/S2 or manual XJS anyone?
944S/S2 or manual XJS anyone?
Lowtimer said:
Tebbs said:
For my own curiosity do you have that chart adjusted for inflation, and adjusted for house price inflation?
The raw data is all available via his website if you want to have a go. Wouldn't be a big job to throw the UK RPI data set into the Excel spreadsheet.http://www.honestjg.com/2013/06/uk-right-hand-driv...
![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/RZQhO6CG.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/0dG6byxU" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/0dG6byxU.jpg)
DP33 said:
In all a brilliant thread, lots of really chunky sensible comment. There's no point bemoaning the missed opportunity or passed-over £10k E30M or £40k 964 RS. Those particular gold-plated and copper-bottomed ships have sailed. Yes the market is more air than anything else but now it's all about the finding the Next Big (But Cheap-ish) Thing.
944S/S2 or manual XJS anyone?
Manual V12 XJS is a good shout. I'd put cash into Japanese classics - up to about 2000 - myself. If I didn't have such a wasteful ex-wife...944S/S2 or manual XJS anyone?
hondansx said:
Being an NSX fan, i laugh at the thought of the 348 ever being worth big money; it wasn't a good car in period, and ain't now either. The 355 righted all those wrongs and got Ferrari back on track, with that incredible soundtrack to go with it.
Thing is I've driven both, back to back, same day same track - genuine question though, have you? - if not I would say that whilst the F355 is undoubtedly the better car, certainly to live with every day, it is a much 'softer' car as well; power steering, flappy paddle gearbox, electronic suspension etc - all things that the 348 doesn't have which make it the more raw driving experience. The suspension was also set up to be a bit closer to the edge with snap over-steer always lurking in the background if you didn't treat the car with a bit of respect. The 348 demanded much more of the driver and I can see how it was compared unfavorably against the NSX at the time BUT being the last ever Ferrari V8 without any driver aids at all and only available as a manual without power steering, and the car that launched the Challenge series via a dealer supplied kit of parts to put on your road car, I think there might just be a place for it after all. And I honestly don't recall the 355 sounding any better.
My tip for future appreciation: E39 BMW 5-series. Especially post-facelift 520i Tourings! 
In all seriousness, that generation of late-90s BMWs is going to go nuts at some point. E38 7ers were stupidly cheap a year or so ago, but they seem to be picking up a bit now (though they're still criminally cheap for what they are). E39 M5s can still be had for inside £10k at the moment, which is simply daft - that's a £50k car in the making, I reckon. Alpinas are already worth a bit on rarity grounds and they're only going one way.
X308 Jags are still scrap money and very plentiful - which is perhaps their problem. LS400s are stupidly cheap too. W124 Mercs are picking up, watch nice 6-cylinder petrol examples of those start to appreciate, V8s will go through the roof. I can also see the M156-engined x63 AMG Mercs appreciating significantly when every AMG is powered by a 4.0 twin turbo. A pre-facelift W212 E63 estate in dark red for me please... does anyone reckon first-gen Lexus ISs with the straight-six engine and allegedly lovely 6spd manual will ever pick up much?
What's the verdict on Audi R8s? They are, by most accounts, very nice indeed to drive and manual examples are fairly plentiful - but are they special enough ever to become seriously valuable? I'd love one myself, so I hope they remain cheap! 2WD Gallardos are an interesting one, I think they're likely to go up, but bog standard 4WD ones, I'm not so sure. Whereas I think the Murcielago is going to go up - last of the manuals, last of the line of Bizzarrini V12s (1963-2012!)...
Ferraris - the 400/412 is BOUND to go up in value at some point, it's basically a Daytona underneath for crying out loud. If it never picks up - use them as the basis for Daytona or earlier 365 replicas... says the same man who decried 250GTEs getting GTO'd recently! 456s, 550s, 575s and 612s have got to be worth more than people are paying for them at the moment.
I wonder what the market makes of AM Vanquishes with the factory manual conversion? Does this still make 'em worth less as a modification, even though it's a definite improvement and not some backstreet bodge? Manual DB9s/DBSs are surely going to start appreciating...
In all seriousness, that generation of late-90s BMWs is going to go nuts at some point. E38 7ers were stupidly cheap a year or so ago, but they seem to be picking up a bit now (though they're still criminally cheap for what they are). E39 M5s can still be had for inside £10k at the moment, which is simply daft - that's a £50k car in the making, I reckon. Alpinas are already worth a bit on rarity grounds and they're only going one way.
X308 Jags are still scrap money and very plentiful - which is perhaps their problem. LS400s are stupidly cheap too. W124 Mercs are picking up, watch nice 6-cylinder petrol examples of those start to appreciate, V8s will go through the roof. I can also see the M156-engined x63 AMG Mercs appreciating significantly when every AMG is powered by a 4.0 twin turbo. A pre-facelift W212 E63 estate in dark red for me please... does anyone reckon first-gen Lexus ISs with the straight-six engine and allegedly lovely 6spd manual will ever pick up much?
What's the verdict on Audi R8s? They are, by most accounts, very nice indeed to drive and manual examples are fairly plentiful - but are they special enough ever to become seriously valuable? I'd love one myself, so I hope they remain cheap! 2WD Gallardos are an interesting one, I think they're likely to go up, but bog standard 4WD ones, I'm not so sure. Whereas I think the Murcielago is going to go up - last of the manuals, last of the line of Bizzarrini V12s (1963-2012!)...
Ferraris - the 400/412 is BOUND to go up in value at some point, it's basically a Daytona underneath for crying out loud. If it never picks up - use them as the basis for Daytona or earlier 365 replicas... says the same man who decried 250GTEs getting GTO'd recently! 456s, 550s, 575s and 612s have got to be worth more than people are paying for them at the moment.
I wonder what the market makes of AM Vanquishes with the factory manual conversion? Does this still make 'em worth less as a modification, even though it's a definite improvement and not some backstreet bodge? Manual DB9s/DBSs are surely going to start appreciating...
I was hoping for a bit more enlightenment from the financial experts about the vagaries of market dynamics but it would have probably been beyond me anyway.
Fascinating how cars within the same brand can be so differently affected.
The 4 cyl Porsches continue to be overlooked by collectors. 924 GT ought to be the exception. The 968 CS is by all accounts worthy of classic status but collectors only seem to have eyes for 6 cyl Porsches. I consider the 928 to be an iconic late 70's/80's car yet even in rare final GTS form they are looking cheap. Finally on Porsche, didn't we all want the Turbo when we were kids? It was never about the RS, it was the Turbo all the way. It was Porsche's 'supercar' and guaranteed Top Trumps 0-60 winner. Isn't a big part of all this fulfilling childhood dreams? I happen to think the early Turbos remain the best looking 911s of them all too. And doesn't the widowmaker handling reputation only make it more intriguing? 3.6 Turbos and 993 Turbos make strong prices but 3.3s go for under £40k for low mileage examples. And Turbos weren't like they are now - big, relatively soft, sophisticated, refined GT cars, they were hardcore sports cars as the 928 fulfilled the GT role.
Audi Ur Quattro rightly enjoys cult status but prices don't reflect that. It's a brilliant, robust, usable (room for 4 adults) and unlike a Skyline GTR for example, there are lots of unmodified examples around. A mystery to me, I have to say I'd love a late 20V.
The other car that's completely missed out on the boom is the Giugiaro Turbo Esprit. Essex cars command strong money (they only made 35), though even they lag far behind an RS500 Cosworth. The rest can be bought for £25k for a very good car. Shabby ones are nearer £10k. Projects are almost free. The best S1 Esprits are all north of £50k now but the S2, which lacks only the exact likeness to Bond's Esprit, top out at around £15k. The vastly improved S3 Turbo (which was also a Bond car) had a galvanized chassis, was Colin Chapman's last road car, iconic 80s Italian styling and was the first 'supercar' to actually handle properly. In 1980 it was actually more expensive than the Ferrari 308, reflecting Chapman's audacity and ambition for the car which exhibited some revolutionary thinking in 1980, notably the refined, lag-free Turbo installation. The roof stereo was super cool too.
Maybe the 80's icons haven't yet come fully into fashion but if and when they do surely this will be right up there in styling terms?
Fascinating how cars within the same brand can be so differently affected.
The 4 cyl Porsches continue to be overlooked by collectors. 924 GT ought to be the exception. The 968 CS is by all accounts worthy of classic status but collectors only seem to have eyes for 6 cyl Porsches. I consider the 928 to be an iconic late 70's/80's car yet even in rare final GTS form they are looking cheap. Finally on Porsche, didn't we all want the Turbo when we were kids? It was never about the RS, it was the Turbo all the way. It was Porsche's 'supercar' and guaranteed Top Trumps 0-60 winner. Isn't a big part of all this fulfilling childhood dreams? I happen to think the early Turbos remain the best looking 911s of them all too. And doesn't the widowmaker handling reputation only make it more intriguing? 3.6 Turbos and 993 Turbos make strong prices but 3.3s go for under £40k for low mileage examples. And Turbos weren't like they are now - big, relatively soft, sophisticated, refined GT cars, they were hardcore sports cars as the 928 fulfilled the GT role.
Audi Ur Quattro rightly enjoys cult status but prices don't reflect that. It's a brilliant, robust, usable (room for 4 adults) and unlike a Skyline GTR for example, there are lots of unmodified examples around. A mystery to me, I have to say I'd love a late 20V.
The other car that's completely missed out on the boom is the Giugiaro Turbo Esprit. Essex cars command strong money (they only made 35), though even they lag far behind an RS500 Cosworth. The rest can be bought for £25k for a very good car. Shabby ones are nearer £10k. Projects are almost free. The best S1 Esprits are all north of £50k now but the S2, which lacks only the exact likeness to Bond's Esprit, top out at around £15k. The vastly improved S3 Turbo (which was also a Bond car) had a galvanized chassis, was Colin Chapman's last road car, iconic 80s Italian styling and was the first 'supercar' to actually handle properly. In 1980 it was actually more expensive than the Ferrari 308, reflecting Chapman's audacity and ambition for the car which exhibited some revolutionary thinking in 1980, notably the refined, lag-free Turbo installation. The roof stereo was super cool too.
Maybe the 80's icons haven't yet come fully into fashion but if and when they do surely this will be right up there in styling terms?
mikebrownhill said:
hondansx said:
Being an NSX fan, i laugh at the thought of the 348 ever being worth big money; it wasn't a good car in period, and ain't now either. The 355 righted all those wrongs and got Ferrari back on track, with that incredible soundtrack to go with it.
Thing is I've driven both, back to back, same day same track - genuine question though, have you? - if not I would say that whilst the F355 is undoubtedly the better car, certainly to live with every day, it is a much 'softer' car as well; power steering, flappy paddle gearbox, electronic suspension etc - all things that the 348 doesn't have which make it the more raw driving experience. The suspension was also set up to be a bit closer to the edge with snap over-steer always lurking in the background if you didn't treat the car with a bit of respect. The 348 demanded much more of the driver and I can see how it was compared unfavorably against the NSX at the time BUT being the last ever Ferrari V8 without any driver aids at all and only available as a manual without power steering, and the car that launched the Challenge series via a dealer supplied kit of parts to put on your road car, I think there might just be a place for it after all. And I honestly don't recall the 355 sounding any better.
With regards to the 348 being rawer, is that not a case of splitting hairs? Will people start saying their Ferrari/Porsche/Whatever is the last of the breed with non-electric windows soon?! Whilst i respect your opinion, the market will look at the history books and see the 355 was celebrated and the 348 castigated. If you prefer the 348, then brilliant; you get to enjoy your preferred car for a relative bargain cost!
I'm really fascinated to see what the NSX does over time though, because it's the Honda badge that is the only fly in the ointment. Not only was it deemed good, it was a 'game changer.' It also has great story behind it, the Senna connection, and won its class at Le Mans. In first generation NSX-R guise (483 made), it's also rarer than the likes of the Porsche GT2 RS (500) and GT3 RS 4.0 (600). And yet, you can get one for well under £100k whilst the facelift NSX-R is north of £200k...
Very true article- it wouldn't surprise me if the market takes a hit, as the economy, and more traditional investments, are starting to (slowly) show improved returns.
I think the Ferrari 400 is ripe for a price hike- the styling in particular looks seem to me to be improving with age.
I think the Ferrari 400 is ripe for a price hike- the styling in particular looks seem to me to be improving with age.
e21Mark said:
Leins said:
Crusoe said:
If the E30M3 is worth that the rhd alpina must be worth investing in.
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b...
These have already gone up substantially in the last few years, as has the 320iS, but will always be capped by the M3 values IMO despite being a lot rarerhttp://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b...
The B6 3.5S will similarily be capped by the much less rare Sport Evo I think
Superb reviews
Looks great
Fantastic engine
Multi award winning engine
Great handling
Manual
About 101 came to UK according to BMW
sutats said:
It's the feel good factor from rocketing house values. Surely those home owners need a classy car to with their cushy homes. Besides how can they let the Jones's next door get a step up on them. lol
Really? Most non-car people I know would think anyone buying a 20+ year old car was perhaps feeling the financial pinch. A brand new 520d on the other hand...hondansx said:
I'm really fascinated to see what the NSX does over time though, because it's the Honda badge that is the only fly in the ointment. Not only was it deemed good, it was a 'game changer.' It also has great story behind it, the Senna connection, and won its class at Le Mans. In first generation NSX-R guise (483 made), it's also rarer than the likes of the Porsche GT2 RS (500) and GT3 RS 4.0 (600). And yet, you can get one for well under £100k whilst the facelift NSX-R is north of £200k...
Several people have referenced this but I've not yet seen an answer.I believe the value of NA2 NSX-Rs is something of a moot point in as much as there is only one in the UK and AFAIK you can't get another one in to use it, unless the regs have changed significantly. (I believe that goes for certain others specs also). NA1 Rs are a little more common. I think there are three of them in the UK. However, I'm not sure they're any easier to get in to the country.
Values of regular NSXs have been rising nicely fairly consistently (since I sold mine in 2008 or so)
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