RE: Price hike: PH Blog
Discussion
corporalsparrow said:
The bubble will burst when interest rates rise, if it's a bubble at all.
At the high end I don't think a rate rise will make much difference.Foreign Investors buy cars with offshore cash. They like cars because, unlike property, they can't really be tracked in the same way. A car can effectively be moved around and sold without tax to be paid. There aren't too many assets that can be bought and sold in this way.
An interesting piece on the topic: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-09/to-find-fakes-vintage-car-sleuth-hunts-by-millimeter.html
"In 2013 alone, classic-car values increased 28 percent, according to the Luxury Investment Index maintained by London real estate brokerage Knight Frank LLP."
That figure is eye-popping...
"In 2013 alone, classic-car values increased 28 percent, according to the Luxury Investment Index maintained by London real estate brokerage Knight Frank LLP."
That figure is eye-popping...
Mermaid said:
mikebrownhill said:
To be honest speaking as a PHer and a long time classic car enthusiast, and an owner of a few modern ones too, the older ones aren't worth the money now being asked for them in my opinion - not as pure driving machines anyway.
I know I risk being shot down in flames here but for instance an E Type isn't worth 100,000 (and I did own a good Series 1 FHC) the brakes are poor, the aerodynamics are nowhere near as good as the shape suggests, they are noisy and not really very comfortable over long distances; fuel consumption, emissions etc are woeful, let alone reliability - and these issues will be common across a whole spectrum of classics purely due to the older technology they employ; several of which I have owned and indeed would own again for the simple fun of driving them, but not at current prices I'm afraid - fun does have it's limits.
Now as investments, that a different matter of course but I can't help but think that the people who are paying these current prices, and those aspiring to buy them, could well be disappointed in the driving dynamics - I just hope they don't lose their shirts on the investments they have made as well.
Excellent postI know I risk being shot down in flames here but for instance an E Type isn't worth 100,000 (and I did own a good Series 1 FHC) the brakes are poor, the aerodynamics are nowhere near as good as the shape suggests, they are noisy and not really very comfortable over long distances; fuel consumption, emissions etc are woeful, let alone reliability - and these issues will be common across a whole spectrum of classics purely due to the older technology they employ; several of which I have owned and indeed would own again for the simple fun of driving them, but not at current prices I'm afraid - fun does have it's limits.
Now as investments, that a different matter of course but I can't help but think that the people who are paying these current prices, and those aspiring to buy them, could well be disappointed in the driving dynamics - I just hope they don't lose their shirts on the investments they have made as well.
Taking this on I am not certain whether a car was any good when it was new is in any way relevant. As an example take this comparison test between a 348, NSX, 911 3.6 Turbo and an Esprit from Autocar in 93.
http://www.lotusespritworld.com/ERoadtests/S4_auto...
Excluding the esprit the values are in nearly the exact converse of the finishing order (a pristine NSX with the mileage of most 348s would surely be a fairly pricey thing?)
What is important is not whether things are good (thinking E46 CS or 997 GTS here) but whether they are “cult”. So as an example- AC Cobra, pretty woeful car in most respects but hugely more valuable than “better” contemporaries and full of “want one” factor. This is compounded by the differences in how something is used. A good new car is not the same as a good toy!
corporalsparrow said:
There's an alchemy to value and it's a mysterious combination of rarity, condition, provenance and just the simple fact that everyone else wants one.
My tip: The BMW Z3M Coupe.
Indeed, thats also what I think, see for example the list>My tip: The BMW Z3M Coupe.
said:
S50 and S52 (1998–2000)
From 1998 onward the M Coupe was powered by the BMW S50 found in the European E36 M3, however, North America was sent the BMW S52 engine that was used in the NA Version of the E36 M3.
European left hand drive S50 engine: 2,178 cars built from April 1998 through June 2000
European right hand drive S50 engine: 821 cars built from August 1998 through June 2000
North America S52 engine: 2,180 cars built from July 1998 through June 2000
Total Worldwide Production: 5,179
S54 (2001–2002)
From October 2001, the M Coupe reappeared worldwide with the new 3.2-litre S54 engine from the E46 M3. This was the highest specific output naturally aspirated engine ever made by BMW when it was fitted to the E46 M3: in M Coupe form it produced 325 hp (242 kW) in European form and 315 hp (235 kW) in North American form, and 354 Nm (261 lbf.ft) of torque.
In South Africa only 40 right hand drive S54 models were imported and all were equipped by the local importer with AC Schnitzer suspension, exhaust, short shift kit, shift knob and 18-inch wheels.[1]
European left hand drive S54 engine: 281 cars built from February 2001 through May 2002
European right hand drive S54 engine: 168 cars built from February 2001 through May 2002
North America S54 engine: 690 cars built from February 2001 through May 2002
Total S54 Worldwide Production: 1139 Cars Built
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M_CoupeFrom 1998 onward the M Coupe was powered by the BMW S50 found in the European E36 M3, however, North America was sent the BMW S52 engine that was used in the NA Version of the E36 M3.
European left hand drive S50 engine: 2,178 cars built from April 1998 through June 2000
European right hand drive S50 engine: 821 cars built from August 1998 through June 2000
North America S52 engine: 2,180 cars built from July 1998 through June 2000
Total Worldwide Production: 5,179
S54 (2001–2002)
From October 2001, the M Coupe reappeared worldwide with the new 3.2-litre S54 engine from the E46 M3. This was the highest specific output naturally aspirated engine ever made by BMW when it was fitted to the E46 M3: in M Coupe form it produced 325 hp (242 kW) in European form and 315 hp (235 kW) in North American form, and 354 Nm (261 lbf.ft) of torque.
In South Africa only 40 right hand drive S54 models were imported and all were equipped by the local importer with AC Schnitzer suspension, exhaust, short shift kit, shift knob and 18-inch wheels.[1]
European left hand drive S54 engine: 281 cars built from February 2001 through May 2002
European right hand drive S54 engine: 168 cars built from February 2001 through May 2002
North America S54 engine: 690 cars built from February 2001 through May 2002
Total S54 Worldwide Production: 1139 Cars Built
ow and
said:
Hartge Z3 coupe 5.0 total worldwide production: 1 car
so way less then a E30 M3what I also think is way undervalued, are the love hand-built! BMW Z1 cars with their galvenized chassis and their plastic body panels et, only 8.000 were made from which about 66 were Alpina's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Z1
kainedog said:
car prices don't shock me anymore, wish I had couple hundred grand a big warehouseWant a bullet proof investment strategy?
http://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Porsche-...
129,000 pounds pre-haggle.
http://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Porsche-...
129,000 pounds pre-haggle.
The 911 may be a mass built car though up until the mid '70s they were basically hand made, In the summer of 1970 (remember it well) Porsche sold their 150,000th car, total since 1948. Now they make that many every year.
I'm going nuts trying to find a value/ 'fair price' (whatever) for a RHD 2.2S but i only seem to see POA adverts and they never get back to me, i think they want to look you up and down size your pockets before saying a price, it's driving me nuts.
Chris, stick with the 2CV.
I'm going nuts trying to find a value/ 'fair price' (whatever) for a RHD 2.2S but i only seem to see POA adverts and they never get back to me, i think they want to look you up and down size your pockets before saying a price, it's driving me nuts.
Chris, stick with the 2CV.
Is it a bubble? Yes. Whats causing it? Zero interest rate policy has directly or indirectly created most of the new wealth, corrupt cash laundering and tax dodging is adding fuel to the fire.
Whats going to pop it? Well ZIRP is already pegged to end soon, in the event this causes a rout in the bond markets then 'alternative' investments will get hit pretty hard and surely the IR is going to get aggressive on the classic car market at some point? Even just from a capital gains and inheritance tax point of view let alone cash sources of foreign 'investors' and it could tip things downhill.
Whats going to pop it? Well ZIRP is already pegged to end soon, in the event this causes a rout in the bond markets then 'alternative' investments will get hit pretty hard and surely the IR is going to get aggressive on the classic car market at some point? Even just from a capital gains and inheritance tax point of view let alone cash sources of foreign 'investors' and it could tip things downhill.
robertpaulson said:
d surely the IR is going to get aggressive on the classic car market at some point? Even just from a capital gains and inheritance tax point of view let alone cash sources of foreign 'investors' and it could tip things downhill.
The IR can be as aggressive as it likes but without primary legislation they can whistle for it. 
There was an article about this in the Daily Mail, values going up over night and people not being paid the right amount by insurers when they crash or have them stolen.
It's hosted here if you want a read:
http://bit.ly/1meETWG
It's hosted here if you want a read:
http://bit.ly/1meETWG
Lowtimer said:
The IR can be as aggressive as it likes but without primary legislation they can whistle for it.
very true, has to be coming soonish though, think a substantial portion of the rise is drive by tax treatment and effectively money laundering. much like shanghai property dumped as soon as everyone knew they would get caught buying something with syphoned cash, once classics become properly tracked and their tax status changes its going to take a bit of steam out of the market Vee12V said:
The Pits said:
The best S1 Esprits are all north of £50k now
Can't remember ever to have seen an S1 for 50k.
This:
http://www.kidston.com/kidston-news-item/127/2011:...
... is interesting.
I think folk who have a Zonda would like to have their equivalent period benchmark. Enthusiast V70 drivers - are there any - might consider a P1800 rather than a TR6. Just a thought.
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