Unsafe Mods - Extreme Dubs / Drifters / Stance etc.
Discussion
HorneyMX5 said:
ManOpener said:
Blah, blah, blah.... Remember a few years ago, the trend for fitting wobble bolts instead of re-drilling hubs with the proper PCD to mount wheels designed for different marques? .... blah, blah, blah.
What's wrong with wobble bolts?Edited by ManOpener on Friday 13th June 12:21
Far better than running only 3 out of 4 bolts or 3 out of 5 which I HAVE seen and is f
king ridiculous! hairykrishna said:
StottyEvo said:
More about the asthetics than performance, which is why cars/vans like these get such a negative response on PH (who are more about performance than asthetics)
Most of the negatives are not about cars like the chap above's van, which appears to have a moderate amount of camber and approximately the correct tyres. Not my taste but it looks decently engineered.It's about the nobbers with their wheels at a 45 degree angle and tyres 2 inches too narrow for their wheels.
The tune will be changed now though (just like your post has a different tune to ones prior) because he came on and debunked the nonsense.
HorneyMX5 said:
What's wrong with wobble bolts?
Never said anything was wrong with them, or that they were unsafe. My point was merely that, whenever a particular modifying style that involves costly custom work becomes fashionable, lots of people will look for a cheap alternative that's technically inferior.Some of these cheap alternatives are doubtlessly safe. Some are questionable. Some are downright dangerous.
LOW4LYFE said:
This thread is just getting silly. Tyre stretch, camber and lows can all be done in a completely legal way and result in a perfectly drive able and road worthy car.
Perhaps, but the first two certainly not to the degree of some examples shown in this thread. Edited by ManOpener on Friday 13th June 13:13
Mr2Mike said:
How original, lowered cars with after-market wheels are very uncommon.
Yep but not as common as standard 
Also how many people have re-mapped their cars and not declared it?
This debate can go on forever but when you watch these programs it's mainly standard cars that haven't been maintained to a good standard rather than the modified ones taste is and always will be subjective so say you don't like it not that it looks s**t because while you may think it there will be others that do.
ZX10R NIN said:
Yep but not as common as standard
Also how many people have re-mapped their cars and not declared it?
This debate can go on forever but when you watch these programs it's mainly standard cars that haven't been maintained to a good standard rather than the modified ones taste is and always will be subjective so say you don't like it not that it looks s**t because while you may think it there will be others that do.
Of course it's my opinion ! Can't be anyone else's now can it ?Also how many people have re-mapped their cars and not declared it?
This debate can go on forever but when you watch these programs it's mainly standard cars that haven't been maintained to a good standard rather than the modified ones taste is and always will be subjective so say you don't like it not that it looks s**t because while you may think it there will be others that do.
Still looks s
t though.Personally I like all sorts of modified cars, although there are several styles I wouldn't want to be seen in myself. I think most cars aesthetics can be improved upon, although excessive camber and tyre stretch aren't my thing. The tyres on my e21 BMW do have a very slight stretch though, as do some extremely well designed and modified cars, such as Singer 911's. As with most things though, when done to excess they start to get silly and have the opposite effect to that which was being sought in the first place.
I picked up an early BMW 1600-2 last week, that had been lowered and made to look very "scene". I actually liked the overall look but once we delved a little deeper it soon became clear that the previous owner preferred form over function! The coilover suspension was so badly made that even Heath Robinson would have denied all knowledge! Add seized brake calliper, a braided brake hose on one side and a perished rubber one on the other! Not to mention all the loose bolts, missing brackets and botched exhaust. Yes, it looked good (if you like that style of car) but it was actually an accident waiting to happen and all in the quest to be "scene".
The suspension could have collapsed at any moment.
On my own e21 BMW, I've replaced the tyres with wider ones, to lose the excessive stretch, so that it will drive properly and not just be for show.
The arches had to be re worked to allow them to fit and not rub though. I wanted a car where even if you don't like the styling, you can appreciate the workmanship.
I picked up an early BMW 1600-2 last week, that had been lowered and made to look very "scene". I actually liked the overall look but once we delved a little deeper it soon became clear that the previous owner preferred form over function! The coilover suspension was so badly made that even Heath Robinson would have denied all knowledge! Add seized brake calliper, a braided brake hose on one side and a perished rubber one on the other! Not to mention all the loose bolts, missing brackets and botched exhaust. Yes, it looked good (if you like that style of car) but it was actually an accident waiting to happen and all in the quest to be "scene".
The suspension could have collapsed at any moment.
On my own e21 BMW, I've replaced the tyres with wider ones, to lose the excessive stretch, so that it will drive properly and not just be for show.
The arches had to be re worked to allow them to fit and not rub though. I wanted a car where even if you don't like the styling, you can appreciate the workmanship.
Edited by e21Mark on Friday 13th June 18:46
Edited by e21Mark on Friday 13th June 18:49
StottyEvo said:
The negatives are specifically about the chaps van and cars alike. If you hadn't notice the post he responded to was directly saying it was poorly engineered and dangerous.
The tune will be changed now though (just like your post has a different tune to ones prior) because he came on and debunked the nonsense.
My tune is still that stretched tyres=dangerous fThe tune will be changed now though (just like your post has a different tune to ones prior) because he came on and debunked the nonsense.
kwitteryvtecyo said:
My EP3 is lowered 30mm on Eibach springs. Any lower (not that I would go any lower as it really knackers the EP3) than 50mm and Admiral won't cover it.
I'm big into the modifying scene, and I haven't actually owned a non modified car yet. The whole "stance scene" in the UK makes me cringe. The cars can look pretty suave, no doubt, but as with everything there's that little niche group that give everyone else a bad rep. Often commonly seen wearing womens jeans, new ear hats at vertical 90 degrees, and a body mass index that makes the average Ethiopian look like Rick Waller. To me, "stance" means changing the wheels for some that fill the arches nicely which is often a by product of fitting wider, stickier rubber, and lowering it slightly to make it look purposeful, not fitting the most ridiculous wheels possible and putting it on air ride.
For example, this MR2 has nice stance.
This is st
[/2p]
You may think it looks sI'm big into the modifying scene, and I haven't actually owned a non modified car yet. The whole "stance scene" in the UK makes me cringe. The cars can look pretty suave, no doubt, but as with everything there's that little niche group that give everyone else a bad rep. Often commonly seen wearing womens jeans, new ear hats at vertical 90 degrees, and a body mass index that makes the average Ethiopian look like Rick Waller. To me, "stance" means changing the wheels for some that fill the arches nicely which is often a by product of fitting wider, stickier rubber, and lowering it slightly to make it look purposeful, not fitting the most ridiculous wheels possible and putting it on air ride.
For example, this MR2 has nice stance.
This is s
t[/2p]
t but when you're sideways at maximum lock, you want the biggest contact patch on the tarmac. As a wheel turns, it cambers in a positive direction. A car with -5 on the front when the wheels are pointing straight ahead will have 0 camber at full lock ensuring maximum grip.nurseholliday said:
You may think it looks st but when you're sideways at maximum lock, you want the biggest contact patch on the tarmac. As a wheel turns, it cambers in a positive direction. A car with -5 on the front when the wheels are pointing straight ahead will have 0 camber at full lock ensuring maximum grip.
I know what you mean, but I'd be very very surprised if that car is ever drifted tbh.t but when you're sideways at maximum lock, you want the biggest contact patch on the tarmac. As a wheel turns, it cambers in a positive direction. A car with -5 on the front when the wheels are pointing straight ahead will have 0 camber at full lock ensuring maximum grip.lord trumpton said:
So, Ben seeing as you have gone into detail on the technicalities is there any chance you could explain a bit about the look you went to so much trouble to create?
As a boring 40yr old I really struggle to 'get' the idea with these type of cars. Obviously the work put in is to create a look and not improve drivability or performance. But what exactly is the attraction with lowering the car to such an extent that the wheels disappear into the arches and have very little, if any suspension travel?
The camber is also really ott - what is this all about? Where does the look or stance originate from?
Also, the roof rack - these seem quite popular on these type of cars. Like an old fashioned rack usually adorned with some old luggage. Do you carry stuff in the luggage or use the rack for anything?
Is the bonnet bra to stop stone chips? If so surely a layer of Paint protection film is the better option? Its very flexible and almost invisible.
Has the engine been modified also?
Your answers would be appreciated
You lose the internet.As a boring 40yr old I really struggle to 'get' the idea with these type of cars. Obviously the work put in is to create a look and not improve drivability or performance. But what exactly is the attraction with lowering the car to such an extent that the wheels disappear into the arches and have very little, if any suspension travel?
The camber is also really ott - what is this all about? Where does the look or stance originate from?
Also, the roof rack - these seem quite popular on these type of cars. Like an old fashioned rack usually adorned with some old luggage. Do you carry stuff in the luggage or use the rack for anything?
Is the bonnet bra to stop stone chips? If so surely a layer of Paint protection film is the better option? Its very flexible and almost invisible.
Has the engine been modified also?
Your answers would be appreciated
nurseholliday said:
You may think it looks st but when you're sideways at maximum lock, you want the biggest contact patch on the tarmac. As a wheel turns, it cambers in a positive direction. A car with -5 on the front when the wheels are pointing straight ahead will have 0 camber at full lock ensuring maximum grip.
t but when you're sideways at maximum lock, you want the biggest contact patch on the tarmac. As a wheel turns, it cambers in a positive direction. A car with -5 on the front when the wheels are pointing straight ahead will have 0 camber at full lock ensuring maximum grip.
That amount of camber is for show.
An F1 car runs around 3.5 degrees of negative camber on the front, between 0 and 1 on the rear.
A road car can't get anywhere near that amount of lateral G, if a car is getting 5 degrees of camber movement when cornering I'd imagine it's probably broken.
vtecyo said:
For example, this MR2 has nice stance.
If that MR2 goes over a bump at any pace the rear tyre is going to foul the arch. Not that it matters I suppose, as these "stance" cars are effectively just posing pouch boulevard cruisers.Also, this gave me a laugh earlier.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/84149652/
TooMany2cvs said:
e21Mark said:
On my own e21 BMW, I've replaced the tyres with wider ones, to lose the excessive stretch, so that it will drive properly and not just be for show.
Umm, just to clarify - are they the "before" or the "after"?They were the ditchseekers that came fitted to the alloys.
People have done silly things to cars for just about as long as car culture has been around surely? In the early 80's people often had an extra red light illuminating the diff, with a jacked up rear end. I certainly don't recall that doing a lot for the performance of your average Mk3 Cortina or Vauxhall Magnum. I'm sure there was a phase of bolting wheels on back to front, as a cheaper option to buying wide wheels? Not to mention cherry bomb silencers, plastic window louvres and Foster Grant spoilers.
Edited by e21Mark on Friday 13th June 23:08
Buff Mchugelarge said:
That amount of camber is for show.
An F1 car runs around 3.5 degrees of negative camber on the front, between 0 and 1 on the rear.
A road car can't get anywhere near that amount of lateral G, if a car is getting 5 degrees of camber movement when cornering I'd imagine it's probably broken.
If you don't understand drifting, that's OK, but don't talk s
t when you don't understand.I just don't get it. The whole point of modifying a car is to improve it, thats what guys like Ed Iskenderian, Vic Edelbrock etc were doing in the 30s out on the dry lakes, removing fenders for weight/aero, figuring out how to build camshafts to give better power, intakes and heads too. Its gone from there onwards.
"Stancing" a car and dramatically increasing the camber makes no improvement to the vehicle, less contact patch, premature tyre wear, limited suspension movement, high spring rates to combat the excessive lowering, stretched tyres, risking deflations etc.
You can create a (very) low car, but it takes some proper engineering to do so - it has to be built from the ground up to achieve it. Seems the whole stanced thing has come about to avoid doing that.
Wide wheels and stretched tyres are nothing new - about 15-20 years ago we called it the "euro look", the germans, belgians etc would put wider wheels on, but they couldn't use wider tyres because they wouldn't fit in the arch. The cars ended up looking a bit like
I guess someone wanted to go lower and thats where the camber thing came from?
Whatever, I still don't understand it, just like everything else I guess the kids will move on to a new fad soon enough.
"Stancing" a car and dramatically increasing the camber makes no improvement to the vehicle, less contact patch, premature tyre wear, limited suspension movement, high spring rates to combat the excessive lowering, stretched tyres, risking deflations etc.
You can create a (very) low car, but it takes some proper engineering to do so - it has to be built from the ground up to achieve it. Seems the whole stanced thing has come about to avoid doing that.
Wide wheels and stretched tyres are nothing new - about 15-20 years ago we called it the "euro look", the germans, belgians etc would put wider wheels on, but they couldn't use wider tyres because they wouldn't fit in the arch. The cars ended up looking a bit like
I guess someone wanted to go lower and thats where the camber thing came from?
Whatever, I still don't understand it, just like everything else I guess the kids will move on to a new fad soon enough.
LOW4LYFE said:
Greg_D said:
he's talking about the utter cretins who do this sort of thing to their cars
To cap it all off, they generally use the cheapest rubber as well becasue they are trashing them so often.
A compulsory 50-0 wet braking test would certainly be illuminating.
Have you ever actually seen anything that extreme in the UK? I haven't. To cap it all off, they generally use the cheapest rubber as well becasue they are trashing them so often.
A compulsory 50-0 wet braking test would certainly be illuminating.
both driving so unable to get a pic.
There's also a BINI with some excess rear camber but it's now been parked on a driveway and won't
get a pic of that either unless it's moved...
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