RE: JLR future tech
Discussion
RacerMike said:
Absolutely get your sentiment, and personally, I like my cars analogue and slightly fighty, however, you're effectively saying that we (as engineers) should just settle for what we've got because it's 'good enough' and forget about trying to do any of this new fangled rubbish.
Not at all! What i am saying is that we should not forget what a car is actually for, and spend the money on the important bits, not the "fripperies" at the edges. For example, instead of spending £10M on some lazer headlights or gesture control, spend it on the engine program, or the chassis tuning, or on NVH, or aerodrag reduction etc etc.Unfortunately, in 2014, in this "i" world we now live in, customers just want "gadgets" and don't seem to care about much else..........
Max_Torque said:
Good God. That pretty much sounds like my worst nightmare of a car!
"things that show you where to brake on a trackday"
- er, i'll just work that out for myself, as that is kinda the point of track days, otherwise i'd just save a lot of hassle and drive my playstation instead (which costs much less when you throw it into the armco!)
"fully adaptive car"
- again, no thanks. I'm a fully adaptive driver so the system cannot ever be as clever as me, so will almost certainly become the most annoying feature of the car, always doing stuff you don't expect at times that it isn't needed.
"New engines"
- ok finally this is what JLR need (they needed it 5 years ago at the XF launch actually). But, deliberately and publically targetting BMW and it's engine is a dangerous game. As a historical "10% short" company if you're gonna play by BMWs rules you need to up your game significantly! (Which to be fair to JLR they have done over the last couple of years) but BMW have at least a 3 year lead on them in development terms in diesels..........
"Gesture control"
- how will tell that actually you were just giving a cyclist the "universal coffee beans" sign, and you didn't want to eject your passenger through the sun roof? Cars work well with conventional buttons. End of
"lasers help people through gaps"
- no, no they don't. Rubbish drivers will still be rubbish. They will just be rubbish with a couple of lasers shining out the side of their car now. You will "still be able to get a bus through there mate" no matter how many lasers you fit to their cars!
"Laser lights"
- bit late to the band wagon with this one, but using actual LASERS, (Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation) which by there very nature produce beams of highly collimated light, sounds like a not very sensible answer for broad scale distributed illumination. And companies like Hela et-al, are so far down the road with this one it's hardly worth starting now
"3d dials"
- when it turns out your new fangled electronic display dash boards look, frankly rubbish, you "fix" them with more new fangled tech... Hmmm.
Unfortunately for me, if manufacturers stopped spending money on pointless Electronic Feature Content we would all be driving round in much better cars........... (god, now i'm starting to sound like an old git ;-)
You will probably have the option to turn most of it off. "things that show you where to brake on a trackday"
- er, i'll just work that out for myself, as that is kinda the point of track days, otherwise i'd just save a lot of hassle and drive my playstation instead (which costs much less when you throw it into the armco!)
"fully adaptive car"
- again, no thanks. I'm a fully adaptive driver so the system cannot ever be as clever as me, so will almost certainly become the most annoying feature of the car, always doing stuff you don't expect at times that it isn't needed.
"New engines"
- ok finally this is what JLR need (they needed it 5 years ago at the XF launch actually). But, deliberately and publically targetting BMW and it's engine is a dangerous game. As a historical "10% short" company if you're gonna play by BMWs rules you need to up your game significantly! (Which to be fair to JLR they have done over the last couple of years) but BMW have at least a 3 year lead on them in development terms in diesels..........
"Gesture control"
- how will tell that actually you were just giving a cyclist the "universal coffee beans" sign, and you didn't want to eject your passenger through the sun roof? Cars work well with conventional buttons. End of
"lasers help people through gaps"
- no, no they don't. Rubbish drivers will still be rubbish. They will just be rubbish with a couple of lasers shining out the side of their car now. You will "still be able to get a bus through there mate" no matter how many lasers you fit to their cars!
"Laser lights"
- bit late to the band wagon with this one, but using actual LASERS, (Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation) which by there very nature produce beams of highly collimated light, sounds like a not very sensible answer for broad scale distributed illumination. And companies like Hela et-al, are so far down the road with this one it's hardly worth starting now
"3d dials"
- when it turns out your new fangled electronic display dash boards look, frankly rubbish, you "fix" them with more new fangled tech... Hmmm.
Unfortunately for me, if manufacturers stopped spending money on pointless Electronic Feature Content we would all be driving round in much better cars........... (god, now i'm starting to sound like an old git ;-)
Edited by Max_Torque on Thursday 10th July 11:34
ITs very positive that they are not just keeping up with other car makers, but actually jumping ahead of them, not just acheiving what others have done, they are going that bit further.
I can see the gesture control running amuck, you pick your nose and flick it out the window, and you have inadvertently switched to 'punk rock' and turned on the wipers and called the mother in law
The heads up display would work better as a sat nav, directing you on to the correct slip road/roundabout exit etc. its kind of pointless as a track application (land rovers round silverstone? yeah ok)
Im sure that some of what is listed wont make it in to the final version, but i like the attitude of whats been mentioned.
I can see the gesture control running amuck, you pick your nose and flick it out the window, and you have inadvertently switched to 'punk rock' and turned on the wipers and called the mother in law
The heads up display would work better as a sat nav, directing you on to the correct slip road/roundabout exit etc. its kind of pointless as a track application (land rovers round silverstone? yeah ok)
Im sure that some of what is listed wont make it in to the final version, but i like the attitude of whats been mentioned.
dme123 said:
gck303 said:
"No more hard-to-reach bolts or impossible-to-remove oil filters; "
I believe that when I see it.
If that really were a concern of auto makers, then cars were you need to remove the front bumper to replace a headlight bulb (Renault Modus) would not exist. It does not need a 3D cave to see that, a simple glance at an early drawing would have been enough?
That's like saying all razor manufacturers don't care about the ease of changing blades based on your experience with a disposable BiC. Don't tar them all with the same brush. Renault make nasty cheap cars and might not care about serviceability but I've never had the slightest problem with access to regular service items on any JLR car. I believe that when I see it.
If that really were a concern of auto makers, then cars were you need to remove the front bumper to replace a headlight bulb (Renault Modus) would not exist. It does not need a 3D cave to see that, a simple glance at an early drawing would have been enough?
Edited by gck303 on Thursday 10th July 10:23
The rear disks were notorious, as they were inboard. A massive job to replace those, though around 1994 they were changed to conventional outboard brakes.
My a/c fan motor failed in mine and was almost inaccessible, even on the passenger side. I gave up and sold the car.
The a/c evaporator is the most obvious exception, as you have to remove the entire dashboard to get to it. The joke was, that at the factory a man holds the evaporator and they build the enire car around it.
Are JLR products similar engineered, now that have more of a focus on style?
A Scotsman said:
That £3.5bn is equal to three quarters of the UK's entire science £4.6bn budget. Just saying!
In 2013 JLRs entire turnover was £13.5bn. A company normally spends 5% on R&D. In 2013 the spend just over £1bn, according to their financial report. Spending £3.5bn in a single year?
Maybe a typo, and should be £1.5bn.
Edited by gck303 on Thursday 10th July 12:55
vincenz said:
gck303 said:
I believe that when I see it.
If that really were a concern of auto makers, then cars were you need to remove the front bumper to replace a headlight bulb (Renault Modus) would not exist. It does not need a 3D cave to see that, a simple glance at an early drawing would have been enough?
The article is about JLR you fIf that really were a concern of auto makers, then cars were you need to remove the front bumper to replace a headlight bulb (Renault Modus) would not exist. It does not need a 3D cave to see that, a simple glance at an early drawing would have been enough?
Edited by gck303 on Thursday 10th July 10:23
king wet wipe, not some poxy French-POSzeppelin101 said:
bodhi said:
Must admit I was looking forward to reading this, then saw the thing they were proudest of was a 4 cylinder diesel engine. Lost interest after that. For all it's great numbers it will still sound like a cement mixer, and with the numbers they are quoting I expect it will grenade itself the second the warranty runs out.
A competitive 4 cylinder diesel might not be exciting for a typical petrol head, but it's the key to the market share that Jaguar desperately needs to remain a viable brand.Unless you'd rather see yet another British brand disappear into oblivion.
Other stuff:-
- HUDS have been on cars for years already. Nothing new there. What JLR are proposing there is evolutionary rather than revolutionary.
- Apps? How about car makers STOP putting extra stuff in to distract drivers from the fundamental purpose - DRIVING!
- 3D dials? I'm with MaxTorque - what's wrong with analogue ones, which have worked for decades, aren't dependent on software, and are pretty foolproof. Is there REALLY a major cost-saving there???
Max_Torque said:
RacerMike said:
Absolutely get your sentiment, and personally, I like my cars analogue and slightly fighty, however, you're effectively saying that we (as engineers) should just settle for what we've got because it's 'good enough' and forget about trying to do any of this new fangled rubbish.
Not at all! What i am saying is that we should not forget what a car is actually for, and spend the money on the important bits, not the "fripperies" at the edges. For example, instead of spending £10M on some lazer headlights or gesture control, spend it on the engine program, or the chassis tuning, or on NVH, or aerodrag reduction etc etc.Unfortunately, in 2014, in this "i" world we now live in, customers just want "gadgets" and don't seem to care about much else..........
Max_Torque said:
RacerMike said:
Absolutely get your sentiment, and personally, I like my cars analogue and slightly fighty, however, you're effectively saying that we (as engineers) should just settle for what we've got because it's 'good enough' and forget about trying to do any of this new fangled rubbish.
Not at all! What i am saying is that we should not forget what a car is actually for, and spend the money on the important bits, not the "fripperies" at the edges. For example, instead of spending £10M on some lazer headlights or gesture control, spend it on the engine program, or the chassis tuning, or on NVH, or aerodrag reduction etc etc.Unfortunately, in 2014, in this "i" world we now live in, customers just want "gadgets" and don't seem to care about much else..........
What a car is actually for, every car does what it needs to (unreliability notwithstanding) - everything else is frippery, from a radio to electric windows. We've got heated (and cooled and ventilated) seats, auto-dimming rear view mirrors, auto-folding mirrors, rain-sensing windscreen wipers, auto-headlights, etc. etc. There was the recent article on Merc's tilting S Class.
Manufacturers need to push the game on each time to market their cars, and now it is a connected world - Bluetooth, iPhone/Android connectivity, these are standard elements now so they have to go steps further to say, "our car has more than their car - buy ours!"
dukebox9reg said:
vincenz said:
gck303 said:
I believe that when I see it.
If that really were a concern of auto makers, then cars were you need to remove the front bumper to replace a headlight bulb (Renault Modus) would not exist. It does not need a 3D cave to see that, a simple glance at an early drawing would have been enough?
The article is about JLR you fIf that really were a concern of auto makers, then cars were you need to remove the front bumper to replace a headlight bulb (Renault Modus) would not exist. It does not need a 3D cave to see that, a simple glance at an early drawing would have been enough?
Edited by gck303 on Thursday 10th July 10:23
king wet wipe, not some poxy French-POSking wet wipe. I'm going to use that. Max_Torque said:
Not at all! What i am saying is that we should not forget what a car is actually for, and spend the money on the important bits, not the "fripperies" at the edges. For example, instead of spending £10M on some lazer headlights or gesture control, spend it on the engine program, or the chassis tuning, or on NVH, or aerodrag reduction etc etc.
Unfortunately, in 2014, in this "i" world we now live in, customers just want "gadgets" and don't seem to care about much else..........
Headlights that let you see further, controls that let you keep your eyes on the road, and more efficient powertrains don't sound like fripperies to me?Unfortunately, in 2014, in this "i" world we now live in, customers just want "gadgets" and don't seem to care about much else..........
But really, isn't something like NVH going to be in diminishing returns about now? If something comes along that allows drastically better NVH, I'd be interested.
Max_Torque said:
Not at all! What i am saying is that we should not forget what a car is actually for, and spend the money on the important bits, not the "fripperies" at the edges. For example, instead of spending £10M on some lazer headlights or gesture control, spend it on the engine program, or the chassis tuning, or on NVH, or aerodrag reduction etc etc.
Unfortunately, in 2014, in this "i" world we now live in, customers just want "gadgets" and don't seem to care about much else..........
Headlights that let you see further, more efficient powerains... these are "fripperies" to you? Unfortunately, in 2014, in this "i" world we now live in, customers just want "gadgets" and don't seem to care about much else..........
Even the gesture control has the sound goal of allowing the driver to spend more time looking at the road, which sounds like a PH-worthy goal to me.
I'm sure if any new tech comes along to significantly (as judged by the customer) and cost effectively improve NVH, they'll develop that too. But currently there isn't, so they don't. What's wrong with that?
Aaaggh. Stop filling cars with this technology. I don't want it.
Bad enough our new Evoque now is being delivered with tyre pressure monitoring sensors I don't need or want.
Better engines = yes please
Lighter = yes please
More mpg = yes please
Better handling = yes please
Useless gadgetry = hell no!
Bad enough our new Evoque now is being delivered with tyre pressure monitoring sensors I don't need or want.
Better engines = yes please
Lighter = yes please
More mpg = yes please
Better handling = yes please
Useless gadgetry = hell no!
I dunno, I guess I'm just a bit disappointed JLR didn't use some of the famous British ingenuity to come up with something a little bit more inspiring than a 4 cylinder diesel engine - something like Mazda have done with SkyActiv, getting better emissions without turbos. But obviously, with a couple of extra cylinders 
I'm sure they'll sell like hotcakes, and (judging by Evoque drivers) will be welded to your back bumper on a motorway near you soon, I'm just a bit sad they've decided to follow the herd quite so blatantly.
Shooting directly at BMW seems a bit silly as well. Judging by the remap potential of some of their engines, I suspect they have a lot more to give in standard form. A quick update from Munich and they're behind the curve again.
I'm sure they'll sell like hotcakes, and (judging by Evoque drivers) will be welded to your back bumper on a motorway near you soon, I'm just a bit sad they've decided to follow the herd quite so blatantly.
Shooting directly at BMW seems a bit silly as well. Judging by the remap potential of some of their engines, I suspect they have a lot more to give in standard form. A quick update from Munich and they're behind the curve again.
havoc said:
You're both right. BUT...I'm also very saddened that they're really proud of a 4-pot...this is JAGUAR FFS, not Ford or Toyota or Renault. That a premium mfr is making a big deal about this suggests that the whole emissions thing is now dominating driving. Owners in the future will have a choice between an overweight mild-hybrid V6/V8 or an uninspiring un-hybrid blown 4-pot. Deep joy!
Thats the future.The now is a 567bhp 5.0 V8.
JonnyVTEC said:
havoc said:
You're both right. BUT...I'm also very saddened that they're really proud of a 4-pot...this is JAGUAR FFS, not Ford or Toyota or Renault. That a premium mfr is making a big deal about this suggests that the whole emissions thing is now dominating driving. Owners in the future will have a choice between an overweight mild-hybrid V6/V8 or an uninspiring un-hybrid blown 4-pot. Deep joy!
Thats the future.The now is a 567bhp 5.0 V8.
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