The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings
Discussion
J4CKO said:
Love the fact that PH is full of "Gearbox Whisperers", using age old mysterious methods to tame wild automatic transmissions.
I dont mind Auto's but its a bit like being a passenger with the wife, i.e. spend most of the journey thinking "Change gear FFS", she is a decent driver but does tend to get tired and a bit lazy with the changes, say hoofing along in fourth on a dual carriageway, at least an auto box doesnt get a collosal bag on if you suggest that it may like to shift up a gear, maybe two.
Not sure. Firstly, you can scream at an auto box and it doesn't remind you of this event every week for the next 40 years. Secondly, sticking your pecker in a gearbox is probably going to lead to less devastating expense and catastrophic ruination of life. I dont mind Auto's but its a bit like being a passenger with the wife, i.e. spend most of the journey thinking "Change gear FFS", she is a decent driver but does tend to get tired and a bit lazy with the changes, say hoofing along in fourth on a dual carriageway, at least an auto box doesnt get a collosal bag on if you suggest that it may like to shift up a gear, maybe two.
Also, they are easier to change and when they start constantly whining, cheaper to fix.
Mr Will said:
We're not asking you to ignore them. A small amount of attention to where your right foot is should let you predict and control them. e.g. "If I back off fractionally less here, the box won't shift up so won't have to shift down again ten seconds later". It becomes instinctual after a while.
That's not how my gearbox seems to respond. If I kept the required amount of throttle on to keep it at medium revs 3-4k for the next piece of driving then the car will be accelerating enough to make the car understeer and the DSC kick in around the current bend. Donkey Apple is completely correct in that the BMW gearbox seems to try to be clever and ends up being frustrating because of it.Mr Will said:
You can in every one I've ever driven. A gentle blip on the accelerator then returning the pedal to where you had it before causes the car to change down a gear (and hold it) without accelerating any faster. Better yet; keep the pedal just below the point at which it up-shifts to avoid ending up in the "wrong" gear in the first place.
Admittedly my knowledge of automatic boxes is not encyclopaedic and this may not work with a PDK box and 300+ horses behind you but it works perfectly in the old-school boxes that everyone loves to hate.
It arises from two considerations that are specific to modern dual clutch autos:-Admittedly my knowledge of automatic boxes is not encyclopaedic and this may not work with a PDK box and 300+ horses behind you but it works perfectly in the old-school boxes that everyone loves to hate.
(1) It has a billion (i.e. 7) gears and will rifle through the middle gears in increments of about 3mph at low speeds.
(2) It will grab a cruising gear (of which it has at least 3) at any opportunity.
For example, tootling along in town at 30mph it will take 6th; if you ease off a little more, it will just cruise in 5th; a little more and it will cruise in 4th.
Sure, you can rouse it by giving the accelerator a little stab, but that is pretty crude and does (in my opinion) result in a fraction of a second in which the engine is labouring. I have been told by Porsche folk that it doesn't, but I can hear it happen. I prefer to just use the paddles to knock it down a couple of gears before using the accelerator.
(An NA Porsche engine is probably particularly sensitive to this kind of stuff because it has very little torque below about 2500rpm and really shouldnt be used for anything but cruising below that.)
All the comments on this thread about the wrong gear remind me why I have always maintained that a slushbox auto needs at least 300BHP to work properly. I have had autos with 180BHP, 220BHP, 300BHP and now 400BHP. Anything less than 300 and you do get these bogging down and wrong gear issues. Even the 300BHP felt a bit lacking to me.
The only things I really worry about now are remembering its in Sport mode and has therefore selected 1st gear (which is normally locked out) so anything more than a gentle throttle will give a hooliganesque amount of wheelspin when pulling out. And when in a 50 I need to go up to 54 to get it to lock up in top then drop back to 50.
The only things I really worry about now are remembering its in Sport mode and has therefore selected 1st gear (which is normally locked out) so anything more than a gentle throttle will give a hooliganesque amount of wheelspin when pulling out. And when in a 50 I need to go up to 54 to get it to lock up in top then drop back to 50.
Just had my new dsg golf r delivered yesterday, apart from a bit of gagging about getting used to it I can safely say the dsg is amazing.
Took it from Glasgow to Dundee and back and it was an effortless cruise and so smooth that 2 of my passengers fell asleep, took it out this morning and put it in sport mode and it transformed the car into an animal
Doubt I'll buy another manual , although it would have to be a dual clutch auto or manual
Took it from Glasgow to Dundee and back and it was an effortless cruise and so smooth that 2 of my passengers fell asleep, took it out this morning and put it in sport mode and it transformed the car into an animal
Doubt I'll buy another manual , although it would have to be a dual clutch auto or manual
I think a DSG or similar is the ideal box for most people - they'll drive faster than they would in a manual (because they'll nail the throttle in low gears in a DSG in a way that they just wouldn't if changing gear themselves).
I found out this weekend why people think so much of the Ford Ecoboost engine. My little brother drives a Focus with one and finds it effortlessly fast (which it sort of is) because he always changes up at about 2500rpm and never ever accelerates hard. You must get the same feeling in an auto Ford.
I found out this weekend why people think so much of the Ford Ecoboost engine. My little brother drives a Focus with one and finds it effortlessly fast (which it sort of is) because he always changes up at about 2500rpm and never ever accelerates hard. You must get the same feeling in an auto Ford.
ORD said:
I think a DSG or similar is the ideal box for most people - they'll drive faster than they would in a manual (because they'll nail the throttle in low gears in a DSG in a way that they just wouldn't if changing gear themselves).
That's the problem though for me and yes a twin clutch will always be faster than a manual but there just isn't anything exciting about them because you don't have to think about anything and it does it all for you without trying and for me where is the fun in that? its just boring and requires no skill at all.Driving a manual on the other hand requires concentration and great timing to get it right but the rewards are there for putting the effort in and the satisfaction of nailing a great gear change yourself cant be replicated by electronics or pulling on a paddle.
The problem is nowadays we live in a fashion conscious world where for some reason paddles and two pedals are seen as the way forward but for me in this instance the past is miles better than the future.
cerb4.5lee said:
jimbop1 said:
Has the BMW 8 speed auto been mentioned on this thread? Just sublime (sp?) : thumbsup:
It has and it is quite rightly a very highly regarded gearbox...but I would still buy the manual version on a car that offers both alternatives though, for example a M235i. IMO there are some engines an auto suits and some it doesn't.
Just found this thread, and all I can say is, after having had my current car and it's predecessor both being auto, (So auto since 1996), I push the pedal down and it goes faster, no probs.
The only noticeable thing was the Granada Ghia 2.9 V6 was a tad faster in the gears than the current Volvo S80.
The only noticeable thing was the Granada Ghia 2.9 V6 was a tad faster in the gears than the current Volvo S80.
I agree that some engines are better with an auto. In general, if an engine has a shortish power band and no character, you may as well get the auto.
For example, the only good thing about the 320d is that it is an auto, which suits its engine extremely well. There would be literally no point in that car with a manual box.
I think people overstate the difficulty of driving fast in a manual. In my younger days I barely ever changed up much before the redline and I don't think I ever fluffed a change.
For example, the only good thing about the 320d is that it is an auto, which suits its engine extremely well. There would be literally no point in that car with a manual box.
I think people overstate the difficulty of driving fast in a manual. In my younger days I barely ever changed up much before the redline and I don't think I ever fluffed a change.
ORD said:
I agree that some engines are better with an auto. In general, if an engine has a shortish power band and no character, you may as well get the auto.
For example, the only good thing about the 320d is that it is an auto, which suits its engine extremely well. There would be literally no point in that car with a manual box.
I think people overstate the difficulty of driving fast in a manual. In my younger days I barely ever changed up much before the redline and I don't think I ever fluffed a change.
I'd certainly never have a diesel manual. Totally pointless. You watch people in manual diesels and the frequency at which they are changing gears is farcical. Either that or all diesel manual owners drive around wFor example, the only good thing about the 320d is that it is an auto, which suits its engine extremely well. There would be literally no point in that car with a manual box.
I think people overstate the difficulty of driving fast in a manual. In my younger days I barely ever changed up much before the redline and I don't think I ever fluffed a change.
king off their passenger. Auto boxes like the ubiquitous ZF8 are so good that I would only have a manual if it was in a car and engine combo that rewarded the experience, I certainly wouldn't bother with a manual in a dull utility product.
jimbop1 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
jimbop1 said:
Has the BMW 8 speed auto been mentioned on this thread? Just sublime (sp?) : thumbsup:
It has and it is quite rightly a very highly regarded gearbox...but I would still buy the manual version on a car that offers both alternatives though, for example a M235i. IMO there are some engines an auto suits and some it doesn't.
cerb4.5lee said:
It has and it is quite rightly a very highly regarded gearbox...but I would still buy the manual version on a car that offers both alternatives though
Really? I could have had a manual 530d instead but the thought didn't even cross my mind given how outstanding the 8 speed auto is. I had a manual 520d loan car this week and the manual box was horrible - notchy, in-precise, just a very bad pairing with the engine. It highlighted all the considerable downsides of a 2 litre diesel, yet the 8 speed auto in a 520d masks many of the unpleasant aspects of that engine.DonkeyApple said:
I'd certainly never have a diesel manual. Totally pointless. You watch people in manual diesels and the frequency at which they are changing gears is farcical. Either that or all diesel manual owners drive around wking off their passenger.
Auto boxes like the ubiquitous ZF8 are so good that I would only have a manual if it was in a car and engine combo that rewarded the experience, I certainly wouldn't bother with a manual in a dull utility product.
I made this mistake because I prefer a manual gearbox and like a fool I had my old 520d with a manual and you are cog swapping at a stupid rate but not getting any reward for it because not only is the engine unrefined but it was also gutless in this model of car so it drove me mad.king off their passenger. Auto boxes like the ubiquitous ZF8 are so good that I would only have a manual if it was in a car and engine combo that rewarded the experience, I certainly wouldn't bother with a manual in a dull utility product.
I drove an auto 320d and it was far improved over the manual alternative that's for sure but it still struggled to hide the engines short comings though...I am not a very big fan of bmw`s 4 pot diesel engine and it does surprise me how many they sell when you consider how noisy and unrefined it is to drive...it can only be the strong MPG and next to nothing VED that wins the day I think.
Fox- said:
cerb4.5lee said:
It has and it is quite rightly a very highly regarded gearbox...but I would still buy the manual version on a car that offers both alternatives though
Really? I could have had a manual 530d instead but the thought didn't even cross my mind given how outstanding the 8 speed auto is. I had a manual 520d loan car this week and the manual box was horrible - notchy, in-precise, just a very bad pairing with the engine. It highlighted all the considerable downsides of a 2 litre diesel, yet the 8 speed auto in a 520d masks many of the unpleasant aspects of that engine.cerb4.5lee said:
it does surprise me how many they sell when you consider how noisy and unrefined it is to drive...it can only be the strong MPG and next to nothing VED that wins the day I think.
It offers everything the discerning consumer wants these days.a) A BMW badge on the keyring
b) M SPORT PLUS S-LINE ULTRA badges
c) Very low visible costs like road tax and fuel (They dont care about the hidden costs of motoring)
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