The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

[DonkeyApple]

cerb4.5lee said:

redtwin said:

cerb4.5lee said:

FrankUnderwood said:

How old is the Auto that the OP is on about? New 8 speed is unbelievably good.

Its the ZF 6speed from the E9x 3 series 2006 model, I have the same gearbox in my 330i so its easy for me to say it stinks! well it does in this particular application anyway, agree though everyone waxes lyrical about the 8 speed...but I haven't got the confidence anymore for me to risk spending my own money on buying that one though!!

Which engine though?. As mentioned many times in this thread, the engine the autobox is mated makes a massive difference.

Agree, the OP has the same engine as mine the 3 litre petrol coupled to the autobox, I used to have the 3 litre diesel mated to the same gearbox and that worked far better, most speak highly of the ZF 8 speed in the M135i and diesel models so it seems the later gearbox is a vast improvement.

It's definitely a cheap TCU map on the 3L petrol a that is the issue as the box works brilliantly in many other applications.

The key with the 8 is firstly it is a better box but BMW launched with the 135 and the intent to sell bucket loads as autos so will have invested the massive programming time to get a perfect map in them. They never planned to sell many of our type of car so I reckon never invested what was needed as opposed to the same box mates to the diesels which sold in numbers probably 100 to 1000 fold.

The reset on 5 series of this era is to put the key in and light up the dash but don't start it. Then floor the throttle for 30 seconds and it wipes the intuitive memory. Don't know if it is the same for 3s or 1s.

[Fox-]

Limpet said:

2.0d and ZF8 are a really nice combo in the F30. 0-60 in the 7s, 140 top whack and 50+ mpg all day long in mixed driving without trying. Gruff old lump but nothing else I'm aware of delivers those kind of numbers.

The F30 330d isn't far off economy wise, is considerably quicker and has a far better soundtrack with far less of the gruffness.

[Welshbeef]

Fox- said:

Limpet said:

2.0d and ZF8 are a really nice combo in the F30. 0-60 in the 7s, 140 top whack and 50+ mpg all day long in mixed driving without trying. Gruff old lump but nothing else I'm aware of delivers those kind of numbers.

The F30 330d isn't far off economy wise, is considerably quicker and has a far better soundtrack with far less of the gruffness.

With >160mph top speed 5.4seconds to 62mph 12.7seconds to 100mph happy days.

[cerb4.5lee]

DonkeyApple said:

It's definitely a cheap TCU map on the 3L petrol a that is the issue as the box works brilliantly in many other applications.

The key with the 8 is firstly it is a better box but BMW launched with the 135 and the intent to sell bucket loads as autos so will have invested the massive programming time to get a perfect map in them. They never planned to sell many of our type of car so I reckon never invested what was needed as opposed to the same box mates to the diesels which sold in numbers probably 100 to 1000 fold.

The reset on 5 series of this era is to put the key in and light up the dash but don't start it. Then floor the throttle for 30 seconds and it wipes the intuitive memory. Don't know if it is the same for 3s or 1s.

I might have to try that reset on mine then because I am guessing the previous owner was a bit of a steady eddie because I have put 3 litres of oil in it already since I got it at the end of last November and it doesn't smoke or drop oil I just think it might be using more as its not been used to being opened up regularly maybe.

Its the most thirsty for oil car I have owned...if you discount my old Cerb but that used to leave puddles of it all over the garage floor but at least I knew where that was going!!

[FiF]

redtwin said:

Which engine though?. As mentioned many times in this thread, the engine the autobox is mated makes a massive difference.

I am a massive fan of autoboxes, that is until I had a 1.0 Micra auto as a loaner from a garage and owned a 2.0 petrol Accord auto. Neither of those engines produced enough low end torque to compliment an auto gearbox. Previous automatic cars have had engine sizes between 3.8 and 6.6 litres.

If one thinks back to the days before diesel engines in passenger cars really took off the only successful autos were really those with big lazy torquey lumps. Anything small low torque and revvy in nature were a disaster and still are.

It always seemed obvious that low revving torquey diesels would marry well to autos but the problem was that autos at that time had relatively few ratios and the lack of diesel rev range just seemed not a good match.

Now with multispeed boxes and the ability to obtain lockup in most gears has allowed the concept to flourish and use of very high overdrive upper ratios.

[JagXJR]

The last 3 of 4 cars I have owned have all had excellent auto gearboxes. The S type Jaguar admittedly did have a momentary hesitation when kicking down fully as if it was trying to decide which gear to select, but they never felt they were in the wrong gear at all

The XJR and X-type kick-downs were immediate and allowed the car to take off smoothly, gear changes were imperceptible and far quicker than I could do myself in a manual. They were so good that I only ever manually selected gears when going down hill for engine braking.

The 4 speed Subaru Auto that I mistakenly bought to replace the XJR however is a different story, Gear changes are felt noticeably, it is sometimes in the wrong gear (always in the same place so not random) and just feels agricultural compared to the Jaguars. I end up over-riding the box quite often in this car.

Where autos really excel in my opinion is with the ability to control the car with the right foot and the right hand (that is where the Cruise Control buttons are). As posted if you master the gearbox with the right foot it can be as satisfying as a manual, coupled with the ability to use CC to control the speed. Set to the speed limit, when you have to brake to slow it is one button press to return to cruising speed. The box is always in the correct gear to do this, leaving the driver to concentrate on more important issues.

Even the different type of car effects this behaviour though. The Jaguars on resuming accelerate hard as if the only thing important is reaching the set speed, and this often feels too quick. Passengers notice this and does not make for leisurely progress. Great for powering out of bends though. The Subaru on the other hand picks up speed slowly unless uphill, and can have impatient drivers hanging on your bumper, not realising you actually want to drive quicker.

The Alfa convertible that I picked up for summer driving is manual and while this is fine on country roads is a bind in town driving, leading to a love-hate relationship. If I was going on B road, summer journeys I would choose the Alfa, for pretty much anything else it's the Jaguar. Local trips or town work the Subaru is fine.

I think the choice of car is more important than transmission type, get a good auto car and you wont want a manual car as it offers best of both worlds.

I have never noticed the issue stopping that Chris Hinds mentioned, the Jaguars and Subaru always stop smoothly when the brake is eased off, If anything it is the manual Alfa that needs careful feathering of the brake to stop without jerking as drive shunt can occur if not.

The latest autoboxes are so good they are faster and more economical than manuals. Coupled with a knee that aches with too much movement automatics are ideal for me

[Welshbeef]

I do wonder it in general the auto haters have never driven an auto at all or the ones they have have been old or say 1ltr autos.

Food for thought.

F1 hasn't had manual shift for what 20years, WRC 15+ years Le Mans series cars etc.


Question is why do some want a manual? Is it because its a but cheaper to buy first off, is it the perception that old autos use more fuel and are slower to accelerate, is it the thought that they take an age to change gear when in fact now they are super quick and have been quicker than average joe could change gears (hand on steering wheel go though the change bad back to steering wheel quicker than an auto) possibly for the last 10-15years.
Impossible to over rev engine nor labour it so better for the engines

The arguement is usually that people feel disconnected well if the flappy paddles give instant changes just as you request then its an invalid point.

[FiF]

Perhaps it's because the manual gearbox gives the illusion of being fully in control. Well in reality the driver is in control but there is also a big assumption required that they are always in the right gear at the right time.

The automatic box removes some of that complete control admittedly, though some of that control can be regained by 'gearbox whispering.' Like that term.

Of course a good automatic box is more likely to be in the right gear at the right time than an average driver and probably even more than many better than average drivers.

There will be exceptions to this rule, poor engine transmission matches on the one hand and true driving gods on the other.

[jimbop1]

Fox- said:

It offers everything the discerning consumer wants these days.

a) A BMW badge on the keyring
b) M SPORT PLUS S-LINE ULTRA badges
c) Very low visible costs like road tax and fuel (They dont care about the hidden costs of motoring)

So what do you recommend instead?

[DonkeyApple]

cerb4.5lee said:

DonkeyApple said:

It's definitely a cheap TCU map on the 3L petrol a that is the issue as the box works brilliantly in many other applications.

The key with the 8 is firstly it is a better box but BMW launched with the 135 and the intent to sell bucket loads as autos so will have invested the massive programming time to get a perfect map in them. They never planned to sell many of our type of car so I reckon never invested what was needed as opposed to the same box mates to the diesels which sold in numbers probably 100 to 1000 fold.

The reset on 5 series of this era is to put the key in and light up the dash but don't start it. Then floor the throttle for 30 seconds and it wipes the intuitive memory. Don't know if it is the same for 3s or 1s.

I might have to try that reset on mine then because I am guessing the previous owner was a bit of a steady eddie because I have put 3 litres of oil in it already since I got it at the end of last November and it doesn't smoke or drop oil I just think it might be using more as its not been used to being opened up regularly maybe.

Its the most thirsty for oil car I have owned...if you discount my old Cerb but that used to leave puddles of it all over the garage floor but at least I knew where that was going!!

Forgotten that when you search BMW or Merc forums you have to wade through such enormous quantities of tard dribble. These are definitely the products of choice for people who have never learned much but have seemingly confused being able to get a finance payment together each month with being an important person.

Reminds me of trying to research the M112 AMG engine. Nothing at all on the web other than monkeys segueing over which colour was baddest or how to increase power so as to shave a second off the Southern Fried Chicken run.

Anyway, like all forums, even though you need to dig pretty deep, there are people who know what they are doing. This is the best I could find for the 1 Series:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77...

[FrankUnderwood]

cerb4.5lee said:

FrankUnderwood said:

How old is the Auto that the OP is on about? New 8 speed is unbelievably good.

Its the ZF 6speed from the E9x 3 series 2006 model, I have the same gearbox in my 330i so its easy for me to say it stinks! well it does in this particular application anyway, agree though everyone waxes lyrical about the 8 speed...but I haven't got the confidence anymore for me to risk spending my own money on buying that one though!!

Why on earth did you buy it if it stinks?

If it's the same gearbox fitted to the 7 Series then I don't agree with you in the slightest.

Edited by FrankUnderwood on Sunday 20th July 10:57

[redtwin]

If the 7 series in question is an E66 3.0 petrol then it is the same gearbox. The V8s and diesels got a different model gearbox.

[PomBstard]

Welshbeef said:

I do wonder it in general the auto haters have never driven an auto at all or the ones they have have been old or say 1ltr autos.

Food for thought.

F1 hasn't had manual shift for what 20years, WRC 15+ years Le Mans series cars etc.


Question is why do some want a manual? Is it because its a but cheaper to buy first off, is it the perception that old autos use more fuel and are slower to accelerate, is it the thought that they take an age to change gear when in fact now they are super quick and have been quicker than average joe could change gears (hand on steering wheel go though the change bad back to steering wheel quicker than an auto) possibly for the last 10-15years.
Impossible to over rev engine nor labour it so better for the engines

The arguement is usually that people feel disconnected well if the flappy paddles give instant changes just as you request then its an invalid point.

I prefer a manual as I enjoy the mechanical tactility that comes with changing gear and enjoy the skill required to coordinate hand and foot at the same time. When I get it right, it feels good. Using a paddle just isn't the same - its no different to pressing a button and lacks any form of mechanical interaction, bar the pressing bit. The speed of the shift means little, and the comparison to racing means even less - I'm on public roads.

For the presumptuous, preference for a manual gearbox does not mean preference for starting handles, points, leaf springs, no ABS or any other improvements to the reliability of the experience. It simply means preference for changing gear.

And yes, the driver sometimes can be in the wrong gear, but that is what driving is about - keeping alert to the requirements of driving, and not trusting the computer to do it all for you whilst you, as the driver, simply twitch your right foot, or move your hand to/from the cruise control.

I have driven some very good autos, including the VAG DSG and BMW 8 speed, and some rubbish manuals, including Merc 190E and LDV van, but I've never once preferred an auto, or wished for one whilst driving a manual.

[Fox-]

PomBstard said:

I've never once preferred an auto, or wished for one whilst driving a manual.

There speaks somebody who has never driven one of the current generation of awful 2 litre turbodiesels

[E65Ross]

redtwin said:

If the 7 series in question is an E66 3.0 petrol then it is the same gearbox. The V8s and diesels got a different model gearbox.

The gearbox in question is from my car, an E65 with the 4.4 V8.

Cerb4.5lee will also hate this because I think he had it in his old X5 (I see a theme here, he keeps buying cars he doesn't like.... X5, M3, 330i...and then moans about them, quite strange! Have you not heard of a test drive, Lee? )

The gearbox in my 7 is absolutely fine. It's smooth and doesn't hunt for gears. My only criticism is that in slow traffic it can shift from 2nd to 1st at around 10mph when I'd rather it stay in 2nd. It's not the fastest gearbox in the world but it suits its application.

To those saying manuals are more fun than autos. Yes, they are. To those saying they would never choose an auto and doesn't understand why some do.... You're being stupid.

Would I want a manual in a Caterham? Yes. Would I want a manual in my 745i? Not for st. Totally depends on the application.

I bet you, Cerb4.5lee would think a Rolls Royce Phantom would be better than a manual instead of an auto.

[DonkeyApple]

E65Ross said:

The gearbox in question is from my car, an E65 with the 4.4 V8.

Cerb4.5lee will also hate this because I think he had it in his old X5 (I see a theme here, he keeps buying cars he doesn't like.... X5, M3, 330i...and then moans about them, quite strange! Have you not heard of a test drive, Lee? )

The gearbox in my 7 is absolutely fine. It's smooth and doesn't hunt for gears. My only criticism is that in slow traffic it can shift from 2nd to 1st at around 10mph when I'd rather it stay in 2nd. It's not the fastest gearbox in the world but it suits its application.

To those saying manuals are more fun than autos. Yes, they are. To those saying they would never choose an auto and doesn't understand why some do.... You're being stupid.

Would I want a manual in a Caterham? Yes. Would I want a manual in my 745i? Not for st. Totally depends on the application.

I bet you, Cerb4.5lee would think a Rolls Royce Phantom would be better than a manual instead of an auto.

The boxes will be much better in a 7 because they drop the line pressures so you get a slower, smoother change. Increase the line pressure to get quicker changes and you'll start introducing rough changes unless you invest hundreds of hours into a perfect map.

[RedAlfa]

I have over 200,000 miles of driving experience, and I am familiar with manual and auto boxes. I think automatic transmissions are absolutely fine if you read the road and understand what the gearbox is trying to do. I have driven Fiats, Vauxhalls and Mercedes with auto boxes and I have never been unhappy with their performance. Once you learn how to anticipate the gearbox "logic" .. they are very easy to live with

My "fleet" currently includes auto and manual cars. Manuals are ok, but I feel they are getting a little "old hat". Whilst manual transmissions are more efficient, they add wear and tear to the human body (ankle, knee, hip, and lower back) ... I'd rather replace a car part than my hip joint in later life!

Here's to to dual-clutch and hybrids

[E65Ross]

RedAlfa said:

Whilst manual transmissions used to be more efficient, they add wear and tear to the human body (ankle, knee, hip, and lower back) ... I'd rather replace a car part than my hip joint in later life!

Here's to to dual-clutch and hybrids

edited that for you

[PomBstard]

Fox- said:

PomBstard said:

I've never once preferred an auto, or wished for one whilst driving a manual.

There speaks somebody who has never driven one of the current generation of awful 2 litre turbodiesels

I know what you mean, but I did put about 60,000 miles on a 2001 Bora TDI 115 with the 6 speed manual in about 2 years. Driving up and down the M6/M5/M4 and in/out of London. Plenty of traffic jams, cross-country driving, and motorway. Never once wished for an auto box.

More recently had a go in the Mk6 Golf TDI with DSG, and found it further disengaged me from driving. I just couldn't be arsed to be interested at all. Might be the general opinion of the car, but having no mechanical interaction just made me view it as transport and nothing more. Completely switched off.

[Fox-]

PomBstard said:

I know what you mean, but I did put about 60,000 miles on a 2001 Bora TDI 115 with the 6 speed manual in about 2 years. Driving up and down the M6/M5/M4 and in/out of London. Plenty of traffic jams, cross-country driving, and motorway. Never once wished for an auto box.

More recently had a go in the Mk6 Golf TDI with DSG, and found it further disengaged me from driving. I just couldn't be arsed to be interested at all. Might be the general opinion of the car, but having no mechanical interaction just made me view it as transport and nothing more. Completely switched off.

DSG isnt auto anyway, it's a clutchless automated manual, but why would you want to be 'engaged' with driving a tedious 2 litre diesel ecobox? In a sports car - absolutely - but nobody buys a 2 litre diesel for it's sporting cred.