The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

[liner33]

I have a daily driver with a 7 speed dsg and a weekend toy , dare I say sports car with a conventional tiptronic slushbox albeit with flappy paddles and an excellent manual mode

After owning a manual 350z there was no way I would consider the manual 370z, the auto really is excellent.

I cant see myself going back to a manual unless I buy something solely for trackdays

[lufbramatt]

sparks_E39 said:

The autobox in my 530i is fantastic, it is almost without fail in the right gear at the right time and to me on the B roads doesn't feel cumbersome or slow. I simply wouldn't want a manual in my current car.

+1. spent ages looking for a manual E39, then an auto came up in a nice colour and spec with really low miles so thought I'd go see it despite it being an auto. Came home with it. For day to day use, I'd much rather waft around smoothly letting the car sort itself out, stick an autobox on the end of a flexible engine (i.e. one with decent low end torque but a big rev range) and autos are great.

Just a different style of driving. If needed you can still make it change gear when you want, either with the kickdown or the steptonic lever, for overtaking just hold it in third and it responds just like a manual when you put your foot down.

I still enjoy a good manual, but on most modern cars the clutches are horrible- too heavy (to hold the torque of diesel engines) and the shifts vague and notchy due to long linkages to transverse FWD gearboxes (VW that means you) so really, what's the point? On a Caterham where the stick goes straight into the top of the box and you feel like you're moving chucks of metal around, and having to get the revs matched just right it's great fun and part of the experience, otherwise, I'm a bit of a convert to auto!

Edited by lufbramatt on Monday 21st July 11:43

[PomBstard]

lufbramatt said:

I still enjoy a good manual, but on most modern cars the clutches are horrible- too heavy (to hold the torque of diesel engines) and the shifts vague and notchy due to long lickages to transverse FWD gearboxes (VW that means you) so really, what's the point? On a Caterham where the stick goes straight into the top of the box and you feel like you're moving chucks of metal around, and having to get the revs matched just right it's great fun and part of the experience, otherwise, I'm a bit of a convert to auto!

I don't usually make such sweeping assumptions, but I think this is down to your driving experience. Clutches these days are generally quite light, whether for Diesel or not, and most gearchanges are fairly unobstuctive and easy to guide. Try a Monaro 6.0 for reference. Peugeot 205 gearchange is usually rated as pretty good, but when connected to a NA Diesel, and combined with worn linkage bushes, it can make the experience a little less than satisfactory. But again, when this happened to one of our cars, I still didn't think about throwing it away and buying an auto. Instead some nice man in a 735 turned right, across our path, and wrote both cars off.

So, what's the point? For me, and perhaps four or five other people on this website, its a vital part of our driving enjoyment. For everyone else, which on a website such as this I find surprising, it means an easier life when they can concentrate on guiding the car with one hand, and sipping coffee with the other.

Pistonheads - wafting matters

[lufbramatt]

PomBstard said:

I don't usually make such sweeping assumptions, but I think this is down to your driving experience. Clutches these days are generally quite light, whether for Diesel or not, and most gearchanges are fairly unobstuctive and easy to guide. Try a Monaro 6.0 for reference. Peugeot 205 gearchange is usually rated as pretty good, but when connected to a NA Diesel, and combined with worn linkage bushes, it can make the experience a little less than satisfactory. But again, when this happened to one of our cars, I still didn't think about throwing it away and buying an auto. Instead some nice man in a 735 turned right, across our path, and wrote both cars off.

So, what's the point? For me, and perhaps four or five other people on this website, its a vital part of our driving enjoyment. For everyone else, which on a website such as this I find surprising, it means an easier life when they can concentrate on guiding the car with one hand, and sipping coffee with the other.

Pistonheads - wafting matters

A 6 litre Monaro is hardly a typical day to day car though is it? And presumably the gear lever goes pretty much straight into the top of the box due to it being RWD . . .

I've driven plenty of cars, not just the ones on my profile. The 59-plate Mondeo repmobile we have at work makes my back hurt in traffic due to the clutch, and the change is vague. Same with loads of other modern cars. To be fair I have driven cars with clutches so light you pretty much need to take your shoes off to feel what's going on. But like the steering and brakes on many new cars, it's another control that should offer "feel" to the driver, yet may as well just be a graphic button on a touch screen, with no feedback whatsoever.

There are plenty of auto boxes that are awful though, which is what put me off them for so long!

Edited by lufbramatt on Monday 21st July 12:03

[g3org3y]

Patrick Bateman said:

sparks_E39 said:

The autobox in my 530i is fantastic, it is almost without fail in the right gear at the right time and to me on the B roads doesn't feel cumbersome or slow. I simply wouldn't want a manual in my current car.

Really?

I wouldn't say it was bad as such but I do remember being a bit frustrated at times, that's without ever driving any of the new generation to compare either.

E39 had the boxes that 'adapted' to the driver's driving style iirc.

I had the earlier (non adaptive) version on the E36 325i. Didn't think it bad at all, smooth and in a majority of situations was in the correct gear. Once you get used to the auto box's characteristics, you can actually alter the shifts via throttle input.

Economy in town did really suffer compared to the manual.

The only issue was when pushing on that last 5-10% of control did make a difference (though the Sport mode was decent). The last thing you want the box to do is change up/down mid corner!

The other issue was its behaviour when cold. Apparently it used to hold revs for the first few mins in order to warm up the catalytic converter and reduce emissions.

My E30 had a very old school 4 speed auto. Soft and slushy but suited the nature of the convertible (relaxing cruise).

Current E36 328 is a manual. Tiresome in traffic.

Modern autos are more economical and often quicker in a drag race than their manual equivalents. They do make a compelling case (especially as the daily driver).

[PomBstard]

lufbramatt said:

A 6 litre Monaro is hardly a typical day to day car though is it?

Depends where you live...

But I take your point. I used it as an example of how clutches on run-of-the-mill cars aren't really that heavy, and the rest of your post suggests likewise

[redtwin]

PomBstard said:

So, what's the point? For me, and perhaps four or five other people on this website, its a vital part of our driving enjoyment. For everyone else, which on a website such as this I find surprising, it means an easier life when they can concentrate on guiding the car with one hand, and sipping coffee with the other.

Pistonheads - wafting matters

If shifting gears manually increases your driving enjoyment, have at it, why the need for the cheap shot generalization of people who don't share your view on driving enjoyment?.

[E65Ross]

PomBstard said:

In my view, DSG/DCT/PDK = 2 pedals = automatic. And I'm happy to be engaged in driving any car, 2-litre Diesel or rumbling 6-litre Monaro, and the manual gearbox is a very important connection for me in driving any car. Doesn't have to be a sports car.

I think I'm just one of the minority that has never considered any car to be better for being an auto. By that, I mean I have never driven a manual and wondered what it would be like as an auto. Whereas every auto I've ever driven has made me want a manual. And I mean every.

But, each to their own.

Have you ever driven something like a Mercedes S class? If you think that car would be better at what its intended purpose is by having a manual box instead of an auto then I'm very confused!

[lufbramatt]

PomBstard said:

lufbramatt said:

A 6 litre Monaro is hardly a typical day to day car though is it?

Depends where you live...

But I take your point. I used it as an example of how clutches on run-of-the-mill cars aren't really that heavy, and the rest of your post suggests likewise

On something special I'd happily put up with a heavy clutch- it all adds to the experience. However, I'd rather not be sitting in agony in traffic in an otherwise mind-numbingly boring diesel estate that offers no real driving enjoyment at all. IMO it's an all or nothing thing- either waft or go crazy ;-)

I recently had a fantastic day with a Caterham 7, with the 6 speed 'box. "Making progress" around the A and B road of west sussex was greatly enhanced by the bolt-action of the 'box and getting used to the very light flywheel, short gear ratios and pops and burbles on the overrun was all part of the fun. For the daily motorway trudge to work, I don't see what a manual would bring to the party. Horses for courses.

Edited by lufbramatt on Monday 21st July 12:35

[PomBstard]

redtwin said:

PomBstard said:

So, what's the point? For me, and perhaps four or five other people on this website, its a vital part of our driving enjoyment. For everyone else, which on a website such as this I find surprising, it means an easier life when they can concentrate on guiding the car with one hand, and sipping coffee with the other.

Pistonheads - wafting matters

If shifting gears manually increases your driving enjoyment, have at it, why the need for the cheap shot generalization of people who don't share your view on driving enjoyment?.

????? The title of the thread is about the failings of the auto box - not sure what I've written that so offends. I accept I'm in the minority in my preference, and am happy for life to move on.

[PomBstard]

E65Ross said:

PomBstard said:

In my view, DSG/DCT/PDK = 2 pedals = automatic. And I'm happy to be engaged in driving any car, 2-litre Diesel or rumbling 6-litre Monaro, and the manual gearbox is a very important connection for me in driving any car. Doesn't have to be a sports car.

I think I'm just one of the minority that has never considered any car to be better for being an auto. By that, I mean I have never driven a manual and wondered what it would be like as an auto. Whereas every auto I've ever driven has made me want a manual. And I mean every.

But, each to their own.

Have you ever driven something like a Mercedes S class? If you think that car would be better at what its intended purpose is by having a manual box instead of an auto then I'm very confused!

Not driven an S Class, have tried a few larger Germans from the 80s, and a few larger Aussie items from recent years. But not suggesting its better, just that I would wonder what it would be like as a manual, whereas if it were a manual, I would not be wondering what an auto would be like. In any case, I'd see it as a challenge - could I drive a manual S Class as smoothly as the auto??

I'd love to have a go at some of the older Jaguars and Bentleys with manual boxes - remember these used to be chauffeured too. The challenge and the skill required is what would interest me. I know, I'm in the minority.

[bennyboysvuk]

Riff Raff said:

bennyboysvuk said:

The manual mode is like driving on a computer game, the engine is barely audible, there's no vibration or feedback at all through the gear lever and I end up looking at the dash to tell what gear I'm in. Not only that, but it changes up on its own at the redline. The manual mode does allow me to let the car know what gear I want, but it's not very interactive compared to a proper manual 'box.

I did absolutely buy the wrong car. Like M-Sports of old, I was hoping the car would be a good deal more fun than it is.

And this is a bad thing?

That depends on how sideways the car is as it changes up.

[bennyboysvuk]

cerb4.5lee said:

bennyboysvuk said:

That said, I'd far rather drive my 120D manual than my 330i auto. It's so much more rewarding to drive.

I am the same and I didn't think the manual in my old 520d really suited the engine much at all but now I have my 330i auto I am at the point where I would pretty much prefer to drive anything else just for a manual gearbox.

I mentioned a few months back that I hired a transit van and it sounds mad but I enjoyed driving that more than my 330i purely based on its gearbox so that gives you a good idea how much more enjoyable I actually find a manual.

Agreed. I used to own an ex-BT Transit van to get my race bike to the track and when unladen, it would be quite good fun to stir through the gears. The optional plastic tyres were unbelievably easy to light up in the wet too, which made it really quite entertaining.

[sparks_E39]

PomBstard said:

I don't usually make such sweeping assumptions, but I think this is down to your driving experience. Clutches these days are generally quite light, whether for Diesel or not, and most gearchanges are fairly unobstuctive and easy to guide. Try a Monaro 6.0 for reference. Peugeot 205 gearchange is usually rated as pretty good, but when connected to a NA Diesel, and combined with worn linkage bushes, it can make the experience a little less than satisfactory. But again, when this happened to one of our cars, I still didn't think about throwing it away and buying an auto. Instead some nice man in a 735 turned right, across our path, and wrote both cars off.

So, what's the point? For me, and perhaps four or five other people on this website, its a vital part of our driving enjoyment. For everyone else, which on a website such as this I find surprising, it means an easier life when they can concentrate on guiding the car with one hand, and sipping coffee with the other.

Pistonheads - wafting matters

Wafting is my favourite type of driving. I love and appreciate cars which is why I'm on PH, I don't get much out of throwing them around though. The car I have is very enjoyable on a B road blast... and equally as pleasurable sat on the motorway at 70 with the cruise control on.

[JagXJR]

cerb4.5lee said:

E65Ross said:

Would I want a manual in a Caterham? Yes. Would I want a manual in my 745i? Not for st. Totally depends on the application.

I bet you, Cerb4.5lee would think a Rolls Royce Phantom would be better than a manual instead of an auto.

I do agree with this

I have said before that something like a 7 series or Jaguar XJ they certainly need an auto and for me with that type of car the involvement and excitement of the driving experience are very low on the list of priorities to the owners as they are a wafty cruising type vehicle where you just sit back in loads of comfort and watch the world go by so they just wouldn't work with a manual.

I think most drivers of the XJR would disagree, mine was driven with gusto. In fact due to the addictive supercharger noise and slingshot acceleration, they are actually quite hard to waft in

[Coatesy351]

PomBstard said:

lufbramatt said:

A 6 litre Monaro is hardly a typical day to day car though is it?

Depends where you live...

And if the place where you live is Australia your monaro is most likely to be auto.....

[FiF]

cerb4.5lee said:

Love the bit DSG/DCT/PDK = 2 pedals = automatic as this is exactly how I see it too.

Well considering that is how the law sees it too, not sure what the inference is.

[E65Ross]

PomBstard said:

Not driven an S Class, have tried a few larger Germans from the 80s, and a few larger Aussie items from recent years. But not suggesting its better, just that I would wonder what it would be like as a manual, whereas if it were a manual, I would not be wondering what an auto would be like. In any case, I'd see it as a challenge - could I drive a manual S Class as smoothly as the auto??

I'd love to have a go at some of the older Jaguars and Bentleys with manual boxes - remember these used to be chauffeured too. The challenge and the skill required is what would interest me. I know, I'm in the minority.

You do realise that an auto isn't just to make a car smooth, right? You realise that in these big barges they're there to make things as relaxing as possible. The cars are meant to do everything for you and detach you from the driving experience. Whilst you may dislike cars for that, if you can't appreciate WHY people might want that then you're being daft. I totally understand why you might not like that, but if you'd ever want a car like an S class but would prefer it with a manual then that's to miss the whole point of the car. It might be like your Mrs offering you a hand job and then you turning round and saying you can do it better yourself and you prefer the involvement

[cerb4.5lee]

JagXJR said:

cerb4.5lee said:

E65Ross said:

Would I want a manual in a Caterham? Yes. Would I want a manual in my 745i? Not for st. Totally depends on the application.

I bet you, Cerb4.5lee would think a Rolls Royce Phantom would be better than a manual instead of an auto.

I do agree with this

I have said before that something like a 7 series or Jaguar XJ they certainly need an auto and for me with that type of car the involvement and excitement of the driving experience are very low on the list of priorities to the owners as they are a wafty cruising type vehicle where you just sit back in loads of comfort and watch the world go by so they just wouldn't work with a manual.

I think most drivers of the XJR would disagree, mine was driven with gusto. In fact due to the addictive supercharger noise and slingshot acceleration, they are actually quite hard to waft in

It wasn't meant as a criticism of that type of car as I agree there are some serious high performance versions of that type of car but for me personally I prefer something a little smaller and lighter and with a manual gearbox that's all.

I had a play with a E63 AMG once in my old cerbera and I had all on keeping up so I don't think he was bothered about wafting either.

[cerb4.5lee]

FiF said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Love the bit DSG/DCT/PDK = 2 pedals = automatic as this is exactly how I see it too.

Well considering that is how the law sees it too, not sure what the inference is.

Most of the fan boys and champions of this type of gearbox describe it as a manual though and loads do on here and that's what I meant and if you do a search on some car websites for a M3/M5 for the manual it brings up the SMG version as well but why because its not a manual as it works by electronics and not by the left leg so its an auto in my book.