The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

[CrutyRammers]

Never driven one that I liked at all. Now I've never driven a really modern one, but for the last 20 years people have been telling me "ah yes, old ones are bad, but the new ones...", and every time I try a new one they still seem to suck.
But each to his own. I just like changing gear anyway.

[thatdude]

irocfan said:

surely with an auto just override the damn thing. Going to overtake? Ignore "kick-down" and slip it into a lower gear before making your move, once past change up again. Job jobbed

That's the clever thing to do, but some people who drive auto's all the time arnt totally comfortable with using the manual function (which I understand).

I do prefer the whole action of shifting gear manually, but it is nice to just sit and press on a footpeddle to go, and then press on the other one to stop and let the magical boxes of cogs and wiring things sort it all out for me

[Pan Pan]

thatdude said:

irocfan said:

surely with an auto just override the damn thing. Going to overtake? Ignore "kick-down" and slip it into a lower gear before making your move, once past change up again. Job jobbed

That's the clever thing to do, but some people who drive auto's all the time arnt totally comfortable with using the manual function (which I understand).

I do prefer the whole action of shifting gear manually, but it is nice to just sit and press on a footpeddle to go, and then press on the other one to stop and let the magical boxes of cogs and wiring things sort it all out for me

I think this is the good thing about some modern auto boxes, drivers have the choice of shifting manually when they want to, but can just let the auto do the job when in stop start traffic.

[ORD]

Autos are effectively the only sane option for a lot of cars these days. Would you want to drive a 320d with a manual box? Why?! The auto box plus loads of gears means that it maximises the exploitation of its power for you, and it would be dog st to drive with a manual box anyway (as are almost all diesels).

I have been driving a PDK car for a year now and think it is (a) the best auto box I have driven and (b) still not as good as a good manual. My next car will be a manual.

[jamieduff1981]

CrutyRammers said:

Never driven one that I liked at all. Now I've never driven a really modern one, but for the last 20 years people have been telling me "ah yes, old ones are bad, but the new ones...", and every time I try a new one they still seem to suck.
But each to his own. I just like changing gear anyway.

I like the tactility of changing gear manually when driving for pleasure. For commuting, it's a modern automatic every day for me.

A car like the XFR(S) just wouldn't be any good with a manual gearbox, and passengers really wouldn't appreciate the whiplash from 500lb.ft disappearing and reappearing across a manual gear change. With the ZF 8 speed, it's virtually instantaneous. It changes softly when you're driving sensibly, and changes quickly when you're ragging it. It locks up in all gears properly - it's not floating around 2000rpm waiting for the car to catch up. It'll downchange properly when you tell it to complete with throttle blips and you can actually use engine braking to good effect unlike old-fashioned autos.

It seems that the great thing about the ZF in particular is that each car manufacturer can programme it any way they please to suit the character(s) of the car. I added the (s) there because the gearbox is very good at suiting the Jeckyll & Hyde alter-egos of performance saloons too that can be driven very smoothly or can be hooned around like a lunatic equally well.

[Sheepshanks]

bennyboysvuk said:

e.g. enter a tight slip-road to a dual carriageway from a roundabout and the car will be changing up and keeping the revs low as the corner of the slip-road opens up. I want to get to motorway speed quite quickly, so push the throttle further and it drops down a couple of gears and it's then in the right gear.

I'm not sure what the problem is in that example - the autobox isn't psychic. Is this your 330i? I'd have thought that would get up to speed pretty rapidly without needing to boot it.

I do think autoboxes work well with turbo-diesels as they mask the limited rev range, and the diesel's torque will pick the car up from pretty well any speed in any gear once rolling - although I'd have thought a 330i would be good at that too. The only time I drive petrol autos any distance is in the US and they do seem more uncertain about what they're doing.

[Dodsy]

The 6 Speed ZF in the XJR is ok, its sometimes poor decision making is overcome by the 400Bhp on tap. What I hate is that it pulls away in 2nd gear unless sport mode is selected. On a light throttle is just crawls out at slow speed , gently push the throttle and nothing, nothing,. nothing *wham* it takes off. Its a well documented problem with the XJR, I dont think they ever mapped the FBW throttle properly. Easily solved by selecting sport mode but that then kills the already rather low fuel consumption.

When I'm driving on my own its fine but with passengers the lumpy / erratic acceleration when pulling out gets annoying so I am constantly turning it on and off.

[furtive]

simo1863 said:

Vauxhalls are really bad too, as are Fords.

WRONG. The dual-clutch auto in my S-Max is very good

[TommoAE86]

Dodsy said:

The 6 Speed ZF in the XJR is ok, its sometimes poor decision making is overcome by the 400Bhp on tap. What I hate is that it pulls away in 2nd gear unless sport mode is selected. On a light throttle is just crawls out at slow speed , gently push the throttle and nothing, nothing,. nothing *wham* it takes off. Its a well documented problem with the XJR, I dont think they ever mapped the FBW throttle properly. Easily solved by selecting sport mode but that then kills the already rather low fuel consumption.

When I'm driving on my own its fine but with passengers the lumpy / erratic acceleration when pulling out gets annoying so I am constantly turning it on and off.

Agree with this, normal driving in my old Jag was sublime smooth shifts (DSG is just pointless), but then you had the take off reluctance and I've started doing alot more B-road driving. So it's gone

As per the first post it's where you want your compromises to lie, for me, improved thigh muscles in stop start traffic and more control wins over wafty laziness.

[Sheepshanks]

Dodsy said:

The 6 Speed ZF in the XJR is ok, its sometimes poor decision making is overcome by the 400Bhp on tap. What I hate is that it pulls away in 2nd gear unless sport mode is selected. On a light throttle is just crawls out at slow speed , gently push the throttle and nothing, nothing,. nothing *wham* it takes off. Its a well documented problem with the XJR, I dont think they ever mapped the FBW throttle properly. Easily solved by selecting sport mode but that then kills the already rather low fuel consumption.

5 Speed Merc boxes feel the same if in Comfort mode - anything more than a bit of gas from rest and they shift down to 1st with an unseemly jolt. I drive mine in Standard all the time.

[BHC]

Not at all. My Range Rover is a six-speed automatic and I wouldn't want it with a manual gearbox to be honest.

[Zod]

The eight speed ZF is the first automatic that I've really rated. It is almost always in the right gear and provides good engine braking. If I need a quick overtake, I use the paddles, but otherwise, I never touch them.

Stil prefer my manual though.

[JakeT]

I've only driven 2. The 5spd in an E53 X5 3.0i is pretty nice. Does the creep well and generally knows which gear is right. I've also driven a 500 Twinair with the dualogic box and it has no idea of what is going on. It will sit at 30 in second and hold gears much too long on the slowdown. I prefer Torque Converters to automated manuals. Unless in a 'sporty' application where the ZF 8spd is meant to be excellent, almost comparable to a dual clutch.

[TurboHatchback]

I think a good autobox is great in the right car with the right engine. My Jeep had a Mercedes 5-speed box, driving gently you couldn't hear the engine at all or tell where the shifts were, there was just a forward thrust proportional to how far the pedal was depressed. Under full beans it shifted up at the redline with no let up in power, I thought it was great.

There are good and bad boxes of course, bad ones are really obviously bad but good ones should be unnoticeable in their operation. I think that torque converter autos only work well with really torquey engines, either diesels or 4.0l+ petrols.

[Pickled]

For those with the older 5 speed BMW autos, have you tried reseting the gearbox? These were adaptive boxes and learn your style of driving, one of the first things I did with any of the auto BMWs I've bought in the past was to reset the box, so it learnt my style.

[cerb4.5lee]

Sheepshanks said:

I do think autoboxes work well with turbo-diesels as they mask the limited rev range, and the diesel's torque will pick the car up from pretty well any speed in any gear once rolling - although I'd have thought a 330i would be good at that too. The only time I drive petrol autos any distance is in the US and they do seem more uncertain about what they're doing.

I detest autos/twin clutches but some how we have managed to get both in the household for some reason at the moment! I agree autoboxes do work well with diesels but I also have the auto in my 330i and its just a completely clueless gearbox and it doesn't suit or perform well with the engine and it does surprise me that most 330i`s are autos.

Its just such a dim witted gearbox and even when you try to take control in manual mode it still does what it wants and in sport it just holds onto the revs too much when you don't want it too yet in normal drive its about as lively as a pensioners tea party, I am starting to sound like a broken record as I always seem to moan about autos but from what I have read Jaguar can get this gearbox to do as its told so why cant BMW.

[Sump]

You don't know how to drive with an auto.

use the throttle to control all the gear changes. It's very simple actually.

[cerb4.5lee]

TurboHatchback said:

There are good and bad boxes of course, bad ones are really obviously bad but good ones should be unnoticeable in their operation. I think that torque converter autos only work well with really torquey engines, either diesels or 4.0l+ petrols.

I think this hits the nail on the head and makes sense why the ZF slushbox doesn't work in my 330i very well and is a bad gearbox as the engine doesn't have much torque and it only has a relatively small capacity but as with anything you don't know until you try it and in our old 330d it seemed to worked a treat because of the torque and short powerband.

[cerb4.5lee]

kapiteinlangzaam said:

Sump said:

use the throttle to control all the gear changes. It's very simple actually.

This! Learn the shift points of the box and drive accordingly.

The problem these days is that most drivers seem to the think that the 3 (or 2) pedals are digital instruments, whereas I like to think they are analogue

There isn't anything analogue about a gearbox that is controlled by electronics though as they are always in control hence why I don't like autos/twin clutches and if you want full control you buy a manual and that's what I will do in the future but as with anything its each to their own and some like manuals and some don't and for me if you like one its hard to like the other.

[mikey77]

I've had many autoboxes in the past 30-odd years, many of them Hondas. I've never had a dud. I now have an Accord diesel auto with the best transmission I've ever owned. I also have a late XJS with the 4-speed GM auto - also excellent.

I can recall many manual transmissions with various failings and weaknesses, not all of them down to the way they were used.