The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

[bracken78]

bennyboysvuk said:

That said, I'd far rather drive my 120D manual than my 330i auto. It's so much more rewarding to drive. If I could just swap the engines over, I think I'd be happy (ish).

I find this comment very interesting. We have a 330i auto (2006) and a 120D manual (2005) and I much prefer the 330i auto to the 120d for the daily grind as it much more relaxing. If you want fun then to me neither the 330i (manual or auto) and 120d (manual or auto) can be called fun but that is a personal point of view.

Fun for me is high revs, N/A, petrol and manual.

Our 330i auto (ZF) has been perfect expect for a leak which needed fixing. It changes up and down as required and is smooth.

To me an auto is what it is, a more relax way to drive on our busy roads.

[CrutyRammers]

Fox- said:

DSG isnt auto anyway, it's a clutchless automated manual, but why would you want to be 'engaged' with driving a tedious 2 litre diesel ecobox? In a sports car - absolutely - but nobody buys a 2 litre diesel for it's sporting cred.

What a bizarre thing to say. I like to be engaged with whatever I'm driving, be it a luton van, a sports car, or anything in between.
Some people may have no choice but to buy a practical (read "tedious") hatchback for various reasons - doesn't mean that they can't enjoy driving it.

As with Mr Pom, I just like changing gear, whatever I'm driving. It's part of the fun.

[FiF]

cerb4.5lee said:

FiF said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Love the bit DSG/DCT/PDK = 2 pedals = automatic as this is exactly how I see it too.

Well considering that is how the law sees it too, not sure what the inference is.

Most of the fan boys and champions of this type of gearbox describe it as a manual though and loads do on here and that's what I meant and if you do a search on some car websites for a M3/M5 for the manual it brings up the SMG version as well but why because its not a manual as it works by electronics and not by the left leg so its an auto in my book.

Pedant mode.

Well if they describe it as a manual they'd be wrong, though some police officers have seen it as a manual, they are wrong too.

for info here is the guidance given to test examiners.

DSA guidance said:

6.8 VEHICLES WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
A vehicle with automatic transmission is defined in regulations as `A vehicle in which the gear ratio between the engine and the wheels can be varied only by the use of the accelerator or brakes'. In general a vehicle without a manual clutch is regarded as an automatic.

Then I've snipped out the bits about particular techniques to be used and how to mark faults in respect of these.

DSA guidance later said:

6.9 PARTICULAR DRIVING SYSTEMS

FULLY AUTOMATIC SYSTEM
This type has selector settings for forward and reverse, neutral and/or park. It also has settings which enable the driver to select and retain a particular gear ratio or range of gear ratios, e.g. to obtain engine braking when descending a steep hill, although gear changes are normally made automatically. Most automatics of this type enable the driver to make an immediate change into the lower gear, to obtain extra acceleration, by means of `kick down' or part throttle operation actuated by the accelerator pedal. In nearly all cases the selector lever is mounted on the floor or the steering column in the position normally occupied by the gear lever, but there are exceptions, e.g. a panel of press buttons on the facia.

SEMI-AUTOMATIC SYSTEMS
With these the driver has to select the gear required by movement of the gear lever as with a manually controlled gearbox, but there is no clutch pedal. For driving test and licensing purposes these vehicles are regarded as automatics.

Then it waffles on about pre-selector systems and so on.

In the driving licence regs depending where you look you find either:-

“vehicle with automatic transmission” means a class of vehicle in which either—
(a)the driver is not provided with any means whereby he may vary the gear ratio between the engine and the road wheels independently of the accelerator and the brakes, or
(b)he is provided with such means but they do not include a clutch pedal or lever which he may operate manually,
(and accordingly a vehicle with manual transmission is any other class of vehicle);

or:-
““vehicle with manual transmission” means a motor vehicle in which a clutch pedal (or lever operated manually for categories A, A2 and A1) is present and must be operated by the driver when starting or stopping the vehicle and changing gears (and accordingly a vehicle with automatic transmission is any other class of motor vehicle).”.


So as said a bit ago, law sees anything without a clutch pedal / lever as an auto. Btw lever does not refer to gear lever. Just saying as folks get confused by that.

[E65Ross]

cerb4.5lee said:

FiF said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Love the bit DSG/DCT/PDK = 2 pedals = automatic as this is exactly how I see it too.

Well considering that is how the law sees it too, not sure what the inference is.

Most of the fan boys and champions of this type of gearbox describe it as a manual though and loads do on here and that's what I meant and if you do a search on some car websites for a M3/M5 for the manual it brings up the SMG version as well but why because its not a manual as it works by electronics and not by the left leg so its an auto in my book.

Now this I agree with. I view the DCT/DSG style boxes as semi-automatics, NOT manuals. To me, a manual is a clutch and a stick, if it can be driven totally without a 3rd pedal and no user input then it's an auto with a manual over-ride. IMO.

[DonkeyApple]

cerb4.5lee said:

E65Ross said:

cerb4.5lee said:

bennyboysvuk said:

That said, I'd far rather drive my 120D manual than my 330i auto. It's so much more rewarding to drive.

I am the same and I didn't think the manual in my old 520d really suited the engine much at all but now I have my 330i auto I am at the point where I would pretty much prefer to drive anything else just for a manual gearbox.

I mentioned a few months back that I hired a transit van and it sounds mad but I enjoyed driving that more than my 330i purely based on its gearbox so that gives you a good idea how much more enjoyable I actually find a manual.

Being a van man is always fun

I agree and I do really enjoy driving vans and I think if I ever won the lottery I would have to have some sort of van in my collection.

I reckon half the blokes who buy camper conversions do so as a legitimate excuse to tool around in a van.

[liner33]

I wouldn't really describe the auto in my 370 as un-involving although I do spend most of the time in drive. I can see why people prefer manuals but often wish they would just say they prefer them in a way that some people prefer red cars to blue cars rather than arguing they arent any good based on anecdotal evidence of a mate who once owned a 20 year old sh**box that was never a good example of anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3vQ0Q0_9VE

[ORD]

Cars with automatic transmissions used to have the following flaws relative to manuals:-

(1) Less fuel efficient.
(2) Slower.
(3) Slow to respond to inputs.
(4) Little engine braking and ability to hold a gear.
(5) Less involvement with gear changing and interaction with the engine.

With the right auto box, (1) to (4) no longer apply at all.

(5) is still there and can be decisive for some people, at least in relation to some cars.

There are of course huge difference between even modern autos. I find the PDK and other 'roboticised manual' boxes far better than true CVT autos (although they vary greatly, too).

In my book, I would prefer a manual for any car over anything but a PDK-style box. True autos (even the best ones) leave me entirely cold.

I think it's all gravy as long as we are given a choice in cars for which people might want a manual, which must include at least:-

Sports cars
Any remotely 'sporty' hatch or exec
Supercars

I think once you've driven a PDK/DSG whatever box, you'd find it hard not to want one in any purely functional car. Very few flaws apart from being ruthlessly effective in a boring way.

[bloomen]

When I've been stuck in the US for long periods I do faintly start to warm to autos.

As soon as I'm back in a manual in the UK it's an instant relief and a total joy in comparison. It's like coming out of a tranquilised fog. I'll never, ever be a fan.

[jamieduff1981]

There will never be a manual supercar again. Nobody would build such a car and accept the performance loses from a manual gearbox. It may please the occassional PHer but in every objective measure that cam be written on paper it will be pissed all over by an automatic, be that acceleration figures, Nurburgring lap times, Topgear test track times or whatever. The people with actual money will buy the automatic.

[cerb4.5lee]

ORD said:

I think once you've driven a PDK/DSG whatever box, you'd find it hard not to want one in any purely functional car. Very few flaws apart from being ruthlessly effective in a boring way.

When I put my sensible cap on I can see why my mrs has the twin clutch S-Tronic gearbox in hers because she does around 30k miles a year mainly on A and B roads so I think she would get sick of constantly using a clutch and changing gear.

You hit the nail on the head because when I drive it I just find it incredibly boring and even using the paddles things don't liven up much but I agree they are efficient as they offer better economy and lower emissions and they change gear super fast when compared to what you could do yourself in a manual so I can see why they are loved by most...just not me though.

[CR6ZZ]

I'll admit to being one of the minority. I just enjoy changing gear myself - I look upon it as a challenge and get out of the car after every single drive with a satisfied smile if I know I got all changes completely right. Modern autos may be great, but I'd never buy one for personal use. Even had an argument with the rental car company in Australia a couple of weeks ago when they presented me with an auto after I had booked a manual. They eventually ferreted around and found me a manual, but they were most surprised that I didn't want the auto. One thing an auto falls down (correct me if I'm wrong) on is that, if by some chance the battery goes flat, you can't give it a push to get it going.

[DonkeyApple]

E65Ross said:

Have you ever driven something like a Mercedes S class? If you think that car would be better at what its intended purpose is by having a manual box instead of an auto then I'm very confused!

The 5G Tronic is probably the pinnacle of electronic slush pump autos.

It's ability to take over 800ft/lbs and with smooth changes that would burn out most torque converters in a few days is phenominal.

[Welshbeef]

I guess the Auto haters are about /relatively soon to hit a reality check when we have fully electric cars like the Tesla S being the norm - there will be no stock shift options all auto and all 1 gear.


F1 is auto only
Le Mans auto only
V8 series auto only
WRC auto only

Most Ferraris Auto only - anyone auto haters going to turn down a 458 Speciale as its auto only?

[bennyboysvuk]

bracken78 said:

I find this comment very interesting. We have a 330i auto (2006) and a 120D manual (2005) and I much prefer the 330i auto to the 120d for the daily grind as it much more relaxing. If you want fun then to me neither the 330i (manual or auto) and 120d (manual or auto) can be called fun but that is a personal point of view.

Fun for me is high revs, N/A, petrol and manual.

Our 330i auto (ZF) has been perfect expect for a leak which needed fixing. It changes up and down as required and is smooth.

To me an auto is what it is, a more relax way to drive on our busy roads.

This goes past the automatic debate I guess. The 330i has more grip and far more irritating driver aids so it's really easy to go quickly without really noticing, which in turn doesn't really raise the pulse. Not only that, but when it does slide, it's very understeery, whereas on corner entry the 120D handles a bit like a Clio 182. Together with cog-swapping manually, heel and toe downchanges, holding it in gear, knowing it won't change up mid-slide etc, it's hugely more involving to drive than the 330i. I chose the 330i because my old sport BMWs were fantastic and I needed an estate car. This one can't hold a candle to those older cars in the fun department.

I do agree with fun being high revs, N/A and manual 'box and if I could have my own car to commute in (my commute is 50% empty dual carriageways with empty roundabouts and empty twisting NSL B-roads) it would be neither of these cars. I really do need an estate car though and for what I want, there's really extremely limited choice.

[ORD]

Welshbeef said:

I guess the Auto haters are about /relatively soon to hit a reality check when we have fully electric cars like the Tesla S being the norm - there will be no stock shift options all auto and all 1 gear.


F1 is auto only
Le Mans auto only
V8 series auto only
WRC auto only

Most Ferraris Auto only - anyone auto haters going to turn down a 458 Speciale as its auto only?

I am not a hater by any stretch of the imagination, but I would turn down a 458 S for exactly that reason despite it being in all other respects my dream car.

Why would I want to put a computer controlled system between me and that engine?!

While there are manual sports cars, plenty of people won't look at an auto one.

My PDK Cayman S is far too fast to be driven hard in this country, so a 458 would be insane. When driving a fast car slowly, you need the interaction of a manual to maintain the fun. Journos don't get this because they so test drive sports and supercars at very illegal speeds.

I would rather have a PDK or similar for 'maximum attack' but that is an extremely rare thing on a public road. The only instance I can think of is a very twisty and tight little B road section where I'm never out of second gear and changes between 1st and 2nd would be extremely taxing in a manual.

[DonkeyApple]

Welshbeef said:

I guess the Auto haters are about /relatively soon to hit a reality check when we have fully electric cars like the Tesla S being the norm - there will be no stock shift options all auto and all 1 gear.


F1 is auto only
Le Mans auto only
V8 series auto only
WRC auto only

Most Ferraris Auto only - anyone auto haters going to turn down a 458 Speciale as its auto only?

I'm not an auto hater and I'd turn down a 458 on those grounds. When it comes to driving for sport and recreation I will opt for less power and more engagement and for me an archaic and mechanically crude manual box is a key criteria. And hence why I can't see myself buying modern sports cars again and remaining very happily with classics.

[liner33]

CR6ZZ said:

One thing an auto falls down (correct me if I'm wrong) on is that, if by some chance the battery goes flat, you can't give it a push to get it going.

Probably not , if the battery is flat on a fuel injected car pushing it wont help as they have electric fuel pumps.

[cerb4.5lee]

Welshbeef said:

I guess the Auto haters are about /relatively soon to hit a reality check when we have fully electric cars like the Tesla S being the norm - there will be no stock shift options all auto and all 1 gear.


F1 is auto only
Le Mans auto only
V8 series auto only
WRC auto only

Most Ferraris Auto only - anyone auto haters going to turn down a 458 Speciale as its auto only?

This is a bugbear for me because the R35 GTR is one of my dream cars and I have always wanted one but I do think if I had one that once I had got used to its stunning performance I would be hankering after a manual again because you just don't get any reward back from driving an auto but I love absolutely everything else about that car.

That said though if it was available as a manual it wouldn't be anywhere near as fast so in the day and age you just cant have your cake and eat it too there has to be a compromise somewhere, its like the latest 911 GT3 its a stunning gearbox from what I have read but there are still people that mourn the manual from the 997 version.

[herewego]

Welshbeef said:

I guess the Auto haters are about /relatively soon to hit a reality check when we have fully electric cars like the Tesla S being the norm - there will be no stock shift options all auto and all 1 gear.


F1 is auto only
Le Mans auto only
V8 series auto only
WRC auto only

Most Ferraris Auto only - anyone auto haters going to turn down a 458 Speciale as its auto only?

Surely if the driver selects the ratio then it's a manual gearbox.

[DonkeyApple]

herewego said:

Welshbeef said:

I guess the Auto haters are about /relatively soon to hit a reality check when we have fully electric cars like the Tesla S being the norm - there will be no stock shift options all auto and all 1 gear.


F1 is auto only
Le Mans auto only
V8 series auto only
WRC auto only

Most Ferraris Auto only - anyone auto haters going to turn down a 458 Speciale as its auto only?

Surely if the driver selects the ratio then it's a manual gearbox.

I think it is fair to say that if you are pressing a button to change gear then it is an automatic. There are obviously different types of automatic but I would say that almost everyone assumes a manual to be a mechanical system of levering cogs and depressing a clutch manually.