The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

[CR6ZZ]

liner33 said:

CR6ZZ said:

One thing an auto falls down (correct me if I'm wrong) on is that, if by some chance the battery goes flat, you can't give it a push to get it going.

Probably not , if the battery is flat on a fuel injected car pushing it wont help as they have electric fuel pumps.

A valid point. I guess I've always push started cars that either have mechanical pumps or ones with enough residual charge in the battery to run the fuel pump but not enough to turn the engine over....

[Dog Star]

Had autos since 2005 (SLK 230 R170, SL500 R230 (both 5spd) and two SLK250CDiAMGs R172 (7 spd) plus a C class coupe and two V70s (all 5 spd)) and I have never ever had an issue with them. The 7 speed SLK boxes are seamless - I don't notice them at all.

Wouldn't ever go back to a manual now. Love autos

[Riff Raff]

CR6ZZ said:

liner33 said:

CR6ZZ said:

One thing an auto falls down (correct me if I'm wrong) on is that, if by some chance the battery goes flat, you can't give it a push to get it going.

Probably not , if the battery is flat on a fuel injected car pushing it wont help as they have electric fuel pumps.

A valid point. I guess I've always push started cars that either have mechanical pumps or ones with enough residual charge in the battery to run the fuel pump but not enough to turn the engine over....

You also need some charge to fire the injectors. Plus, the ECU won't be able to tell the injectors when to squirt if the battery is completely flat.

[DonkeyApple]

Riff Raff said:

CR6ZZ said:

liner33 said:

CR6ZZ said:

One thing an auto falls down (correct me if I'm wrong) on is that, if by some chance the battery goes flat, you can't give it a push to get it going.

Probably not , if the battery is flat on a fuel injected car pushing it wont help as they have electric fuel pumps.

A valid point. I guess I've always push started cars that either have mechanical pumps or ones with enough residual charge in the battery to run the fuel pump but not enough to turn the engine over....

You also need some charge to fire the injectors. Plus, the ECU won't be able to tell the injectors when to squirt if the battery is completely flat.

It's a good job they fit a big dynamo.

[herewego]

DonkeyApple said:

herewego said:

Welshbeef said:

I guess the Auto haters are about /relatively soon to hit a reality check when we have fully electric cars like the Tesla S being the norm - there will be no stock shift options all auto and all 1 gear.


F1 is auto only
Le Mans auto only
V8 series auto only
WRC auto only

Most Ferraris Auto only - anyone auto haters going to turn down a 458 Speciale as its auto only?

Surely if the driver selects the ratio then it's a manual gearbox.

I think it is fair to say that if you are pressing a button to change gear then it is an automatic. There are obviously different types of automatic but I would say that almost everyone assumes a manual to be a mechanical system of levering cogs and depressing a clutch manually.

Thanks. In my view that's completely wrong.

[lord trumpton]

herewego said:

DonkeyApple said:

herewego said:

Welshbeef said:

I guess the Auto haters are about /relatively soon to hit a reality check when we have fully electric cars like the Tesla S being the norm - there will be no stock shift options all auto and all 1 gear.


F1 is auto only
Le Mans auto only
V8 series auto only
WRC auto only

Most Ferraris Auto only - anyone auto haters going to turn down a 458 Speciale as its auto only?

Surely if the driver selects the ratio then it's a manual gearbox.

I think it is fair to say that if you are pressing a button to change gear then it is an automatic. There are obviously different types of automatic but I would say that almost everyone assumes a manual to be a mechanical system of levering cogs and depressing a clutch manually.

Thanks. In my view that's completely wrong.

I think it is an Automated Manual personally. It requires manual instruction but the gear change is mechetronic

I thank you

[lufbramatt]

herewego said:

DonkeyApple said:

herewego said:

Welshbeef said:

I guess the Auto haters are about /relatively soon to hit a reality check when we have fully electric cars like the Tesla S being the norm - there will be no stock shift options all auto and all 1 gear.


F1 is auto only
Le Mans auto only
V8 series auto only
WRC auto only

Most Ferraris Auto only - anyone auto haters going to turn down a 458 Speciale as its auto only?

Surely if the driver selects the ratio then it's a manual gearbox.

I think it is fair to say that if you are pressing a button to change gear then it is an automatic. There are obviously different types of automatic but I would say that almost everyone assumes a manual to be a mechanical system of levering cogs and depressing a clutch manually.

Thanks. In my view that's completely wrong.

I'm with Donkeyapple.

Clutch pedal= manual

no clutch pedal= auto

Many automatics let you choose a ratio, doesn't mean they're manual transmissions though.

The absolute worst system is the single clutch automated manual. Not smooth like a slushbox, still loads to go wrong, won't creep in traffic/parking, less involvement than a manual. The only advantage being you can drive them on an auto license.

Edited by lufbramatt on Tuesday 22 July 12:13

[bennyboysvuk]

Welshbeef said:

I guess the Auto haters are about /relatively soon to hit a reality check when we have fully electric cars like the Tesla S being the norm - there will be no stock shift options all auto and all 1 gear.

F1 is auto only
Le Mans auto only
V8 series auto only
WRC auto only

Most Ferraris Auto only - anyone auto haters going to turn down a 458 Speciale as its auto only?

I'm an auto-hater, happy to be driven in an auto or even to use it on the motorway, but otherwise I prefer a manual. I'd turn down the 458 Speciale in favour of a GT3-RS or if money allowed, a Zonda.

[cerb4.5lee]

lufbramatt said:

herewego said:

DonkeyApple said:

herewego said:

Welshbeef said:

I guess the Auto haters are about /relatively soon to hit a reality check when we have fully electric cars like the Tesla S being the norm - there will be no stock shift options all auto and all 1 gear.


F1 is auto only
Le Mans auto only
V8 series auto only
WRC auto only

Most Ferraris Auto only - anyone auto haters going to turn down a 458 Speciale as its auto only?

Surely if the driver selects the ratio then it's a manual gearbox.

I think it is fair to say that if you are pressing a button to change gear then it is an automatic. There are obviously different types of automatic but I would say that almost everyone assumes a manual to be a mechanical system of levering cogs and depressing a clutch manually.

Thanks. In my view that's completely wrong.

I'm with Donkeyapple.

Clutch pedal= manual

no clutch pedal= auto

Many automatics let you choose a ratio, doesn't mean they're manual transmissions though.

The absolute worst system is the single clutch automated manual. Not smooth like a slushbox, still loads to go wrong, won't creep in traffic/parking, less involvement than a manual. The only advantage being you can drive them on an auto license.

Edited by lufbramatt on Tuesday 22 July 12:13

I am with DonkeyApple and lufbramatt as well because if it hasn't a gearstick and clutch pedal then its controlled electronically hence you are never in control that's why its an automatic.

[E65Ross]

lufbramatt said:

I'm with Donkeyapple.

Clutch pedal= manual

no clutch pedal= auto

Many automatics let you choose a ratio, doesn't mean they're manual transmissions though.

The absolute worst system is the single clutch automated manual. Not smooth like a slushbox, still loads to go wrong, won't creep in traffic/parking, less involvement than a manual. The only advantage being you can drive them on an auto license.

Edited by lufbramatt on Tuesday 22 July 12:13

I'm in agreement with this. My gearbox allows manual intervention but it's certainly not a manual gearbox in my opinion.

As I've said before, I wouldn't say a manual is better than an auto or vice versa, I'd say that it depends on what you want from a car.

For me, I wanted something quiet, comfortable and smooth which takes away as much stress as possible with my dull motorway commute with stop/start traffic. For that, an auto is better. If I wanted something fun, or my commute wasn't so heavy with traffic etc then I'd prefer a manual. It's horses for courses and I think that if anyone says one is better than the other full stop misses the point of either box and their merits.

Automatic style boxes have come on a long way.... Years ago those not interested in driving would have opted for a manual because they were more efficient, these days it's the opposite. The manual was also faster etc but not any more. It's only merit as such is "involvement", and if that's what people want then the manual is better for them.

[DonkeyApple]

The only merit for a manual in a utility box is that it is cheaper (only just and not in all cases). As you say, modern styles of auto design, even the venerable slush pump, are now faster to change, more economical, deliver superior performance and permit a driver to drive faster as there is one less action to worry about etc.

On paper, the modern auto is infinitely superior to the clunky and complex to learn manual option. The manual gearbox has been rendered obsolete. Just like the Internet and many modern technologies have rendered an older, simpler way of doing things obsolete.

For everything except pleasure or fun. No one can argue that a manual box is defacto better than a modern auto as it is no longer the case. The argument lies in the pleasure it gives the user.

Some people enjoy getting an auto sportscar round a bend at 100mph. Others get more satisfaction out of taking the bend at a lesser speed but being far more involved in the process. There is a reward to be had from pressing on in a manual that can never exist in any time of auto. For some people it will be the other way round. Those people are the future, we are the Fred Dibnahs of motoring. But we will always have the simplistic view that in a sportscar 'Autos for show. Manual for a pro'

[McSatan]

Wheelspins. I couldn't spin the wheels on my Mum's Daf 44 Variomatic. But I could on her Vauxhaull Viva. Cars with manual clutches are better, there's an end of it.

[Pickled]

CR6ZZ said:

One thing an auto falls down (correct me if I'm wrong) on is that, if by some chance the battery goes flat, you can't give it a push to get it going.

Depends on the car, my 928 has the 4 speed merc auto box, and it can be started with a push, even tells you how to do so in the handbook, but that is very old school tech.

Manuals (IMO) are, on the whole, great in 2 litre and below high revving cars, anything above or with a lazy, torquey engine i'd take the auto/dsg/pdk option. I accept there are exceptions to this statement, an auto in a TVR, for example, would just be wrong. I had an X300 4.0 sport jag years ago and that had a (rare) manual box, it was great fun, until the novelty wore off and a heavy clutch with bulky gear changes in traffic just became tiresome.

And definitely agree with the fun in a white van, I had a 316 sprinter that was epic, and ironically, it had a semi-auto box

[FiF]

So a full day after I provided the legal definition of auto vs manual the argument is still going on.

PistonHeads just gets worse.

[E65Ross]

McSatan said:

Wheelspins. I couldn't spin the wheels on my Mum's Daf 44 Variomatic. But I could on her Vauxhaull Viva. Cars with manual clutches are better, there's an end of it.

So you're saying that the manual is better because you couldn't do something on an old variomatic gearbox? OK....

[Clivey]

FiF said:

So a full day after I provided the legal definition of auto vs manual the argument is still going on.

PistonHeads just gets worse.

To be fair, the law is certainly not always correct/right.

[McSatan]

E65Ross said:

McSatan said:

Wheelspins. I couldn't spin the wheels on my Mum's Daf 44 Variomatic. But I could on her Vauxhaull Viva. Cars with manual clutches are better, there's an end of it.

So you're saying that the manual is better because you couldn't do something on an old variomatic gearbox? OK....

Yes. I'm glad you agree with me.

[ORD]

McSatan said:

E65Ross said:

McSatan said:

Wheelspins. I couldn't spin the wheels on my Mum's Daf 44 Variomatic. But I could on her Vauxhaull Viva. Cars with manual clutches are better, there's an end of it.

So you're saying that the manual is better because you couldn't do something on an old variomatic gearbox? OK....

Yes. I'm glad you agree with me.

The rear wheels on my car will spin and spin with an appropriately ham-footed application of throttle. Not sure what a manual clutch has got to do with that. It's more about the power/traction relationship and how intrusive the settings for the electronic driver aids.

[McSatan]

ORD said:

The rear wheels on my car will spin and spin with an appropriately ham-footed application of throttle. Not sure what a manual clutch has got to do with that. It's more about the power/traction relationship and how intrusive the settings for the electronic driver aids.

Can you imagine trying to spin the wheels on a Vauxhaull Viva if it was an automatic? It would be as difficult as trying to derail a thread that had turned into very boring Ping-Pong without being facetious!

[E65Ross]

McSatan said:

E65Ross said:

McSatan said:

Wheelspins. I couldn't spin the wheels on my Mum's Daf 44 Variomatic. But I could on her Vauxhaull Viva. Cars with manual clutches are better, there's an end of it.

So you're saying that the manual is better because you couldn't do something on an old variomatic gearbox? OK....

Yes. I'm glad you agree with me.

Well I don't actually, because I can get my 745i to wheelspin and that's got an automatic gearbox....