The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings
Discussion
ORD said:
The rear wheels on my car will spin and spin with an appropriately ham-footed application of throttle. Not sure what a manual clutch has got to do with that. It's more about the power/traction relationship and how intrusive the settings for the electronic driver aids.
My car is hopelessly over-tyred and thus has way more traction than power to overcome it, even in first gear. Even in 2nd gear mid-corner when leaping on the throttle with all driving aids off the rears don't slide, the front just pushes wide instead. It's horrible. Having driven cars with less power, similar grip and a manual gearbox and clutch I can confirm that it's way easier to light up the tyres with a manual, whether going in a straight line or not.bennyboysvuk said:
My car is hopelessly over-tyred and thus has way more traction than power to overcome it, even in first gear. Even in 2nd gear mid-corner when leaping on the throttle with all driving aids off the rears don't slide, the front just pushes wide instead. It's horrible. Having driven cars with less power, similar grip and a manual gearbox and clutch I can confirm that it's way easier to light up the tyres with a manual, whether going in a straight line or not.
The 330i? I'm surprised. Another example of how fast the 3 series has gone downhill without it registering at all with the car press.ORD said:
Why would I want to put a computer controlled system between me and that engine?!
Which is no doubt controlled by some computers and far improved from the days when weights in distributor (or even further back a control on the steering wheel) controlled advance/retard and carburettors with floats to control fuel delivery - no I can see why you'd want a computer in the equation bennyboysvuk said:
My car is hopelessly over-tyred and thus has way more traction than power to overcome it, even in first gear. Even in 2nd gear mid-corner when leaping on the throttle with all driving aids off the rears don't slide, the front just pushes wide instead. It's horrible. Having driven cars with less power, similar grip and a manual gearbox and clutch I can confirm that it's way easier to light up the tyres with a manual, whether going in a straight line or not.
This is also another reason I don't like my 330i auto either but if you are lucky you can get a tiny bit of wheelspin in first gear with the traction off but a manual version would be so much more fun because you could dial plenty of revs up then drop the clutch for fun and games and I used to love leaving massive lines in my old E92 M3 manual for that. This thread is just helping me realise that the 330i with the auto was just built to go slow and steady and it fails miserably at the sports saloon remit but accept it as a boring cruiser and all is well.
Big tyres are cool. Innit.
You won't go far wrong in life if you accept that what Baz and Kev thinks is good is going to be terrible.
I've long believed that the 130 would be a better car with 120 wheels. Even then it's probably a little more than you need. Higher profile will give a better ride while narrower fronts will make it turn in better and the rears will give a little more slide.
I'm probably selling the 130 soon so won't get round to testing my theory but when I ran it with narrower fronts by just 10mm it transformed the drive.
You won't go far wrong in life if you accept that what Baz and Kev thinks is good is going to be terrible.
I've long believed that the 130 would be a better car with 120 wheels. Even then it's probably a little more than you need. Higher profile will give a better ride while narrower fronts will make it turn in better and the rears will give a little more slide.
I'm probably selling the 130 soon so won't get round to testing my theory but when I ran it with narrower fronts by just 10mm it transformed the drive.
JimmyTheHand said:
ORD said:
Why would I want to put a computer controlled system between me and that engine?!
Which is no doubt controlled by some computers and far improved from the days when weights in distributor (or even further back a control on the steering wheel) controlled advance/retard and carburettors with floats to control fuel delivery - no I can see why you'd want a computer in the equation It's obviously a matter of degree. An auto puts a massive barrier between the driver and the engine and is far more intrusive than any of drive by wire and engine management systems. If you can't see the significance of removing the mechanical interaction with the transmission, you're not a driving enthusiast.
ORD said:
JimmyTheHand said:
ORD said:
Why would I want to put a computer controlled system between me and that engine?!
Which is no doubt controlled by some computers and far improved from the days when weights in distributor (or even further back a control on the steering wheel) controlled advance/retard and carburettors with floats to control fuel delivery - no I can see why you'd want a computer in the equation It's obviously a matter of degree. An auto puts a massive barrier between the driver and the engine and is far more intrusive than any of drive by wire and engine management systems. If you can't see the significance of removing the mechanical interaction with the transmission, you're not a driving enthusiast.
A slushbox auto does alienate the driver as the degree of control is reduced, however I feel that the very latest auto 'boxes with paddle shift and dual clutch systems (all computer controlled) offer the keen driver a far sharper, more efficient and more rewarding drive. They actually leave me wondering why I would ever want to press a pedal and move a lever to change gear when I can just touch a paddle and change gear and keep both hands on the wheel and remain focussed on the road/track
I understand the fun behind shifting with a stick, but can someone please explain what they mean by having more control with changing gears with a manual box compared to an auto?
Even older boxes like mine offer more than enough control of which gear I'm in at any given time, and especially the more modern boxes and how that supposed extra control could benefit in day to day or spirited driving?
Genuinely baffled by that as the latest box I've used in a new BMW M6 offered a huge amount of control so will be interested to hear what is meant by having more control.
Thanks.
Even older boxes like mine offer more than enough control of which gear I'm in at any given time, and especially the more modern boxes and how that supposed extra control could benefit in day to day or spirited driving?
Genuinely baffled by that as the latest box I've used in a new BMW M6 offered a huge amount of control so will be interested to hear what is meant by having more control.
Thanks.
DonkeyApple said:
Big tyres are cool. Innit.
You won't go far wrong in life if you accept that what Baz and Kev thinks is good is going to be terrible.
I've long believed that the 130 would be a better car with 120 wheels. Even then it's probably a little more than you need. Higher profile will give a better ride while narrower fronts will make it turn in better and the rears will give a little more slide.
I'm probably selling the 130 soon so won't get round to testing my theory but when I ran it with narrower fronts by just 10mm it transformed the drive.
The 130i could always be specced with 120i wheels as far as I know, it's just the original owner (I'm guessing by your comment this wasn't you?) decided they wanted different wheels.You won't go far wrong in life if you accept that what Baz and Kev thinks is good is going to be terrible.
I've long believed that the 130 would be a better car with 120 wheels. Even then it's probably a little more than you need. Higher profile will give a better ride while narrower fronts will make it turn in better and the rears will give a little more slide.
I'm probably selling the 130 soon so won't get round to testing my theory but when I ran it with narrower fronts by just 10mm it transformed the drive.
bennyboysvuk said:
My car is hopelessly over-tyred and thus has way more traction than power to overcome it, even in first gear. Even in 2nd gear mid-corner when leaping on the throttle with all driving aids off the rears don't slide, the front just pushes wide instead. It's horrible. Having driven cars with less power, similar grip and a manual gearbox and clutch I can confirm that it's way easier to light up the tyres with a manual, whether going in a straight line or not.
Pity you are so far away, I would gladly show you how to easily light up the rear tyres with an autobox. If "over-tyred" means you have drag racing slicks fitted then it won't be so easy, but it can still be done. redtwin said:
bennyboysvuk said:
My car is hopelessly over-tyred and thus has way more traction than power to overcome it, even in first gear. Even in 2nd gear mid-corner when leaping on the throttle with all driving aids off the rears don't slide, the front just pushes wide instead. It's horrible. Having driven cars with less power, similar grip and a manual gearbox and clutch I can confirm that it's way easier to light up the tyres with a manual, whether going in a straight line or not.
Pity you are so far away, I would gladly show you how to easily light up the rear tyres with an autobox. If "over-tyred" means you have drag racing slicks fitted then it won't be so easy, but it can still be done. E65Ross said:
I understand the fun behind shifting with a stick, but can someone please explain what they mean by having more control with changing gears with a manual box compared to an auto?
For me its just the ability to have full control of the throttle with a manual as you can blip the revs yourself on down changes, monitor have many revs you want while pulling away from a standing start or just play and mess about with revs yourself while controlling the throttle pedal by dipping the clutch. Not to mention the fulfilment of a nice gear change at high revs executed yourself for example completing a third to fourth gear change at 8400rpm in my old M3 was very rewarding if you got it right and you wouldn't feel the same satisfaction with the DCT because its electronics doing the work so it is all about feel for me.
I drive my 330i in its manual mode but to me I just never feel really in control as it changes up a gear rather than bounces off the limiter so you don't take control the electronics do and holding onto a specific amount of revs in any given gear just doesn't feel the same as it would in a manual and that's part of why I prefer being in control.
This thread is genuinely helping me accept the auto for what it is and I appreciate the benefits of being able to just drive a car in a really relaxing manner and that's when an auto is at its best.
cerb4.5lee said:
For me its just the ability to have full control of the throttle with a manual as you can blip the revs yourself on down changes, monitor have many revs you want while pulling away from a standing start or just play and mess about with revs yourself while controlling the throttle pedal by dipping the clutch.
Not to mention the fulfilment of a nice gear change at high revs executed yourself for example completing a third to fourth gear change at 8400rpm in my old M3 was very rewarding if you got it right and you wouldn't feel the same satisfaction with the DCT because its electronics doing the work so it is all about feel for me.
I drive my 330i in its manual mode but to me I just never feel really in control as it changes up a gear rather than bounces off the limiter so you don't take control the electronics do and holding onto a specific amount of revs in any given gear just doesn't feel the same as it would in a manual and that's part of why I prefer being in control.
This thread is genuinely helping me accept the auto for what it is and I appreciate the benefits of being able to just drive a car in a really relaxing manner and that's when an auto is at its best.
When I am done showing bennyboysvuk how to wheelspin his auto, I will show you how to hold however many engine revs you want before pulling away.Not to mention the fulfilment of a nice gear change at high revs executed yourself for example completing a third to fourth gear change at 8400rpm in my old M3 was very rewarding if you got it right and you wouldn't feel the same satisfaction with the DCT because its electronics doing the work so it is all about feel for me.
I drive my 330i in its manual mode but to me I just never feel really in control as it changes up a gear rather than bounces off the limiter so you don't take control the electronics do and holding onto a specific amount of revs in any given gear just doesn't feel the same as it would in a manual and that's part of why I prefer being in control.
This thread is genuinely helping me accept the auto for what it is and I appreciate the benefits of being able to just drive a car in a really relaxing manner and that's when an auto is at its best.
Deal?.
A lot of what makes an auto good or bad is the calibration. Remember the shift points are all dictated by the calibration engineer and based on so many different load points and vehicle conditions...sometimes they aren't done so good.
I have spent a lot of time in a variety of Merc & Ford autos as well as VW DSGs. I found the DSGs much-like a manual in the sense that you feel each shift and they are 'positive' whereas with autos, they tend to be much smoother.
A good auto & cal is a very good thing indeed. Hence why I'm buying a C55 AMG.
I have spent a lot of time in a variety of Merc & Ford autos as well as VW DSGs. I found the DSGs much-like a manual in the sense that you feel each shift and they are 'positive' whereas with autos, they tend to be much smoother.
A good auto & cal is a very good thing indeed. Hence why I'm buying a C55 AMG.
cerb4.5lee said:
For me its just the ability to have full control of the throttle with a manual as you can blip the revs yourself on down changes, monitor have many revs you want while pulling away from a standing start or just play and mess about with revs yourself while controlling the throttle pedal by dipping the clutch.
With respect to how many revs you use when pulling away, modern boxes like the DCT allow this (ala launch control). Blipping the throttle on down shifts....again many boxes now do this so by doing it manually I'm not sure what extra control you have (and how that might effect how the engine responds etc). I totally understand the whole "it feels nice thing" trust me, I really do....I was the one who implored my dad to get a manual for his E92 M3.....but I'm not sure how the manual offers any more actual CONTROL as to what's going on?Most autos do shift up at the redline, IIRC the later DCT boxes do not when in manual mode....but even when driving a manual car I can't remember driving, bouncing off the limiter thinking "nah, dont fancy shifting up now, let's hold it here for a while" even when on country roads out for a blast.
cerb4.5lee said:
Not to mention the fulfilment of a nice gear change at high revs executed yourself for example completing a third to fourth gear change at 8400rpm in my old M3 was very rewarding if you got it right and you wouldn't feel the same satisfaction with the DCT because its electronics doing the work so it is all about feel for me.
Agree 100% as I've always said for cars that you want a thrilling experience. However, that's feel and enjoyment and not actually control (in my opinion).Hope that makes sense
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