The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

Author
Discussion

E65Ross

34,946 posts

211 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
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Just to confirm, asked my old man (it's been a while since I drove it!) that on the new M6 if you're in manual mode and don't flick a paddle to shift up a gear it will stick at the rev limiter and will NOT shift up.

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
E65Ross said:
Just to confirm, asked my old man (it's been a while since I drove it!) that on the new M6 if you're in manual mode and don't flick a paddle to shift up a gear it will stick at the rev limiter and will NOT shift up.

I think that's the same in the PDK-S, and I think it's progress.

To the chap who said driving enjoyment is all about the forces on the tyres, how fast do you drive?! If that is the only enjoyment you get from driving, you are missing out on a lot (unless of course you are on the limits in most corners). biggrin

I laughed at the comment re BMWs. The fawning over the current 3-series is almost funny. Without the M Sport suspension, it has far worse handling than any recent car that I have driven (including some very mediocre hatches).

bennyboysvuk

Original Poster:

3,491 posts

247 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
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Kawasicki said:
If you corner at the peak of what the car can achieve, then apply full throttle, your 330i spin the wheels.
No, it won't. Do this and usually the front slides wide. I will confirm that next time I drive it though, which is fortunately very little at the moment since I've been commuting on the R1.

bennyboysvuk

Original Poster:

3,491 posts

247 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
ORD said:
I laughed at the comment re BMWs. The fawning over the current 3-series is almost funny. Without the M Sport suspension, it has far worse handling than any recent car that I have driven (including some very mediocre hatches).
BMW changed their age old front suspension design for the E9* series and it seems that when pushed hard, the bushes deflect to give almost positive camber on the outside front wheel, which exacerbates the understeer issue further when you need it least. The E9* M3 uses a solid bush so feels much better.

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
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E65Ross said:
Sticks. said:
ORD said:
The auto-lovers really cant accept the unequivocally correct, it seems biggrin

Using the manual mode in an auto does prevent block shifts in any true sense, simply because it is sequential. You can hold down the paddle and watch the 'box tick down the gears (not all of which, I don't think, are even engaged), but that is a billion miles from being able to simply pull the stick out of 5th and slot it into 2nd.
That's not the case in the dual clutch systems, which for the purposes of this thread would be considered auto.

I suspect there's potential for a whole thread on whether you should, but I'm not going there biggrin
ORD - modern autos like the 8 speed can shift 3 gears at once. When I owned a manual car I can't EVER remembering block changing that much, in fact, I barely block changed at all. With respect to block changing and control, I did ask how this change of control would alter the drive and when it would be used in daily driving, so when would a block change as described by you be used and how would that be different from shifting a few gears at any given time (quicker than you can manually) with an auto?

Besides, of you like shifting so much, why block change
In my last manual car when on fun drives goijg from high speed straights to slow speed corners I'd always shift sequentially anyway, because it was nice and also to make sure I didn't rev the engine too high.
A serious advantage modern autos have is the ability to effectively preselect a gear. If you know you are going to need 2nd from the apex then hitting down four times and then standing on the brakes to the corner and at the point of speccing you are in the perfect gear is a real advantage.

However, it is never going to be as much fun or as rewarding as getting the same manoeuvre right with a manual.

It's like rifle shooting. A modern set of sights and a semi automatic action is infinitely superior to iron sights and a bolt action. Yet, the reward for good shooting with a bolt action is infinitely higher than having the rifle cycle the round for you.

The simple reality is that very often the older, inferior tool or method is just more engaging and rewarding. And it also separates the competent from the brilliant, which as men, is actually quite important.

And if anyone isn't completely sure then watch some classic footage of a car being worked manually by the driver and then one where the chappie is simply pressing a button and see which is the more impressive spectacle requiring superior skill and judgement.

For 'driving' an old fashioned manual is always the winner. For 'traveling', the modern auto smashes it into the long grass.

cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
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ORD said:
E65Ross said:
Just to confirm, asked my old man (it's been a while since I drove it!) that on the new M6 if you're in manual mode and don't flick a paddle to shift up a gear it will stick at the rev limiter and will NOT shift up.

I think that's the same in the PDK-S, and I think it's progress.
I agree and I think its progress as well as it just gives you that little bit more control or as much as you will ever get with two pedals and paddles and I just wish Audi would now adopt the same set up as Porsche and BMW because ours just changes up on its own accord.

johnbanks

19 posts

220 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
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ORD said:
To the chap who said driving enjoyment is all about the forces on the tyres, how fast do you drive?! If that is the only enjoyment you get from driving, you are missing out on a lot (unless of course you are on the limits in most corners). biggrin
As fast as I safely can without upsetting anyone, but you did emasculate my comment of its full intention somewhat. If you note my comment, "skilled application of forces to the tyres", it does not imply the narrow church you suggest. Achieving smoothness and momentum conservation or even economy is covered. Feeling and interacting with the slip angles at all corners of the car doesn't just happen over the limit but at some way below that, although I can be sure that I would know very quickly if my ABS or stability control wasn't working as I am keen to see over 1g during each journey in a suitable car in the dry in at least one direction of cornering, braking or acceleration. What I am saying is that I don't get much enjoyment from managing a narrow power band that is inherent in all types of internal combustion engine, and I don't feel short changed by a good electric vehicle without a clutch or gearbox. Skilled steering, throttle and braking I enjoy, backed up by observation, road positioning, courtesy etc.

E65Ross

34,946 posts

211 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
A serious advantage modern autos have is the ability to effectively preselect a gear. If you know you are going to need 2nd from the apex then hitting down four times and then standing on the brakes to the corner and at the point of speccing you are in the perfect gear is a real advantage.

However, it is never going to be as much fun or as rewarding as getting the same manoeuvre right with a manual.

It's like rifle shooting. A modern set of sights and a semi automatic action is infinitely superior to iron sights and a bolt action. Yet, the reward for good shooting with a bolt action is infinitely higher than having the rifle cycle the round for you.

The simple reality is that very often the older, inferior tool or method is just more engaging and rewarding. And it also separates the competent from the brilliant, which as men, is actually quite important.

And if anyone isn't completely sure then watch some classic footage of a car being worked manually by the driver and then one where the chappie is simply pressing a button and see which is the more impressive spectacle requiring superior skill and judgement.

For 'driving' an old fashioned manual is always the winner. For 'traveling', the modern auto smashes it into the long grass.
I agree but I'm not sure if you've missed my point? I have always said that manuals can be more fun, but I was specifically relating to driver control, and I'm not sure of the manual does offer any more meaningful control over a well set up DCT box?

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
E65Ross said:
DonkeyApple said:
A serious advantage modern autos have is the ability to effectively preselect a gear. If you know you are going to need 2nd from the apex then hitting down four times and then standing on the brakes to the corner and at the point of speccing you are in the perfect gear is a real advantage.

However, it is never going to be as much fun or as rewarding as getting the same manoeuvre right with a manual.

It's like rifle shooting. A modern set of sights and a semi automatic action is infinitely superior to iron sights and a bolt action. Yet, the reward for good shooting with a bolt action is infinitely higher than having the rifle cycle the round for you.

The simple reality is that very often the older, inferior tool or method is just more engaging and rewarding. And it also separates the competent from the brilliant, which as men, is actually quite important.

And if anyone isn't completely sure then watch some classic footage of a car being worked manually by the driver and then one where the chappie is simply pressing a button and see which is the more impressive spectacle requiring superior skill and judgement.

For 'driving' an old fashioned manual is always the winner. For 'traveling', the modern auto smashes it into the long grass.
I agree but I'm not sure if you've missed my point? I have always said that manuals can be more fun, but I was specifically relating to driver control, and I'm not sure of the manual does offer any more meaningful control over a well set up DCT box?
I was in agreement. But trying to also say that both have merits. An auto never knows what you are thinking so there will be situations when it has made a prediction based on the sets of binary data it is feeding off that is not inline with what you are about to do or a rapid change in situation. And in those situations a manual is superior as it isn't trying to predict anything but is just doing as it's told and if you decide or need to suddenly do something random then it will obey as fast as you can coordinate your brain to muscle messages. In that regard, the manual puts you in much more control. Running an auto in manual will negate a lot of this but ultimately is somewhat self defeating as you then lose a set of the core upsides of autos.

Conversely, it's in the area of something like pre selection that the auto out scores the manual and you can spend more attention on traveling into, through and out a corner quicker by manually controlling an auto as you are able to keep both hands in the wheel etc.

tgr

1,129 posts

170 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
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Donkey you put it very well. Besides, on older autos you cannot pre-select.

Push button is fun if you're from the Playstation generation (which I am not) but where's the sense of being part of the engineering?

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
tgr said:
Donkey you put it very well. Besides, on older autos you cannot pre-select.

Push button is fun if you're from the Playstation generation (which I am not) but where's the sense of being part of the engineering?
They have to be hydraulic autos, so pretty old, to not be capable of this. As soon as a box has a TCU you can program it to pre-select.

For example the ZF4HP22 in very early 90s and before BMWs, Jags and Rangies is hydraulic so not possible but the HP24 in those cars which is the electronic version from the early 90s on can be hacked. Back then SuperChips would fit a supplementary gear lever to the steering column that would do this although the factory lever I recall didn't.

I'm supposed to be of the PlayStation generation but I stopped playing computer games when I grew out of my ZX Spectrum and have never really felt at home with all the button malarkey.


johnbanks

19 posts

220 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
Good transmission control units already use satnav data to predict behaviour approaching corners, and for ages have been using lots of data (not just speed & pedals but accelerometers and driver aggressiveness profiles) that makes them better than the vast majority of drivers about selecting the right gear, and covering up narrow power bands on turbos etc.

FiF

43,962 posts

250 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
For me the one thing that autos are bad at is dealing with the typical situation when entering such as a busy roundabout. It's the "prepared to stop looking to go" situation, especially if it's in D, less so in sports but can still be an issue.

It's the slowing, slowing, getting really slow now, go go go scenario.

The sort of thing where in a true manual you would either be in first or second ready and able to go without any hesitation while it has a think. The gear you are in could of course be the wrong one and the engine could bog or whatever, but that's just the case of any vehicle in learning the envelope of what it can do and knowing wwhether for thatvehicle first or second Iis the best option.

So far the auto I have so far owned that dealt with this scenario the best was a Volvo power shift DCT. In 'manual' mode get it into second and it would not change to first until you physically stopped. Even if the wheels were only just rolling it would hold second and still give a reasonable getaway.

E65Ross

34,946 posts

211 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
My 745i will even hold 3rd in manual mode even when you are stationary and will actually pull away in 3rd if you so desire (in manual mode).

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
johnbanks said:
Good transmission control units already use satnav data to predict behaviour approaching corners, and for ages have been using lots of data (not just speed & pedals but accelerometers and driver aggressiveness profiles) that makes them better than the vast majority of drivers about selecting the right gear, and covering up narrow power bands on turbos etc.
Indeed. There is no doubt that they are smarter today than lots of people on the roads. smile

But, it's still the case that all they can do is try and predict the near term using a relatively small data set and algo rules. Even if the algos are intuitive they can't surpass a properly functioning human brain that suddenly decides to change driving character seemingly out of the blue. They can't predict 'fun' but work brilliantly for a civil servant or data collection clerk. wink

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
johnbanks said:
ORD said:
To the chap who said driving enjoyment is all about the forces on the tyres, how fast do you drive?! If that is the only enjoyment you get from driving, you are missing out on a lot (unless of course you are on the limits in most corners). biggrin
As fast as I safely can without upsetting anyone, but you did emasculate my comment of its full intention somewhat. If you note my comment, "skilled application of forces to the tyres", it does not imply the narrow church you suggest. Achieving smoothness and momentum conservation or even economy is covered. Feeling and interacting with the slip angles at all corners of the car doesn't just happen over the limit but at some way below that, although I can be sure that I would know very quickly if my ABS or stability control wasn't working as I am keen to see over 1g during each journey in a suitable car in the dry in at least one direction of cornering, braking or acceleration. What I am saying is that I don't get much enjoyment from managing a narrow power band that is inherent in all types of internal combustion engine, and I don't feel short changed by a good electric vehicle without a clutch or gearbox. Skilled steering, throttle and braking I enjoy, backed up by observation, road positioning, courtesy etc.
But you can have all that plus the sound of a nice 6 cyl or a V8 along with the feel of power building with revs. I don't quite get the idea that less complexity means more fun. It is not as though the ICE detracts from the rest of it - it just adds colour and life.

E65Ross

34,946 posts

211 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
johnbanks said:
Good transmission control units already use satnav data to predict behaviour approaching corners, and for ages have been using lots of data (not just speed & pedals but accelerometers and driver aggressiveness profiles) that makes them better than the vast majority of drivers about selecting the right gear, and covering up narrow power bands on turbos etc.
Indeed. There is no doubt that they are smarter today than lots of people on the roads. smile

But, it's still the case that all they can do is try and predict the near term using a relatively small data set and algo rules. Even if the algos are intuitive they can't surpass a properly functioning human brain that suddenly decides to change driving character seemingly out of the blue. They can't predict 'fun' but work brilliantly for a civil servant or data collection clerk. wink
But that's where the manual override comes in, no? And they can go from bimbling along in top gear at 60mph to flooring it in 3rd far quicker than you could manually as well smile

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
Indeed. There is no doubt that they are smarter today than lots of people on the roads. smile

But, it's still the case that all they can do is try and predict the near term using a relatively small data set and algo rules. Even if the algos are intuitive they can't surpass a properly functioning human brain that suddenly decides to change driving character seemingly out of the blue. They can't predict 'fun' but work brilliantly for a civil servant or data collection clerk. wink
True. I think I could make any auto box seem terrible or seem great depending on how much I aligned my driving to what the box expects.

Even the PDK, which is a sophisticated unit, can sometimes get caught with its pants down if you do something that it didn't see coming. My wife makes it look like a very average box (largely because she has an insanely smooth driving style that lulls the box to sleep and leaves her in 6th when she wants to accelerate).

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
E65Ross said:
DonkeyApple said:
johnbanks said:
Good transmission control units already use satnav data to predict behaviour approaching corners, and for ages have been using lots of data (not just speed & pedals but accelerometers and driver aggressiveness profiles) that makes them better than the vast majority of drivers about selecting the right gear, and covering up narrow power bands on turbos etc.
Indeed. There is no doubt that they are smarter today than lots of people on the roads. smile

But, it's still the case that all they can do is try and predict the near term using a relatively small data set and algo rules. Even if the algos are intuitive they can't surpass a properly functioning human brain that suddenly decides to change driving character seemingly out of the blue. They can't predict 'fun' but work brilliantly for a civil servant or data collection clerk. wink
But that's where the manual override comes in, no? And they can go from bimbling along in top gear at 60mph to flooring it in 3rd far quicker than you could manually as well smile
True but Ze Germans do so want you to follow orders. wink

FiF

43,962 posts

250 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
E65Ross said:
My 745i will even hold 3rd in manual mode even when you are stationary and will actually pull away in 3rd if you so desire (in manual mode).
Even better, bet that helps when it snows.