The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

[Zod]

E65Ross said:

Just to confirm, asked my old man (it's been a while since I drove it!) that on the new M6 if you're in manual mode and don't flick a paddle to shift up a gear it will stick at the rev limiter and will NOT shift up.

Does is change down of its accord as you slow? The Audi S-Tronic in the R8 does and I don't like that it does. In manual mode, I want all gear changes to be made by me.

[JimmyTheHand]

ORD said:

This is the kind of smart-arse comment that makes adults tire of this place.

what because I pointed out you disdain computers in one small part of the car's functioning and yet happily accept where it other areas - cars have come a huge way since I started driving when the radio was the most complex part of the vehicle.

ORD said:

It's obviously a matter of degree. An auto puts a massive barrier between the driver and the engine and is far more intrusive than any of drive by wire and engine management systems. If you can't see the significance of removing the mechanical interaction with the transmission, you're not a driving enthusiast.

When I first switched to an auto I worried about the loss of control that would entail, but you know what it was only low speed manoeuvring that caused me any issues (and those ceased to be an issue after a while) the rest is just a case of learning how to make the car respond accordingly with the throttle, left foot braking, sport buttons and Tiptronic mode.

I doubt would have been so happy in the old dumb three/four speed auto boxes - and it improves my enjoyment by not aggravating knee and shoulder problems in traffic/spirited driving

[E65Ross]

Zod said:

E65Ross said:

Just to confirm, asked my old man (it's been a while since I drove it!) that on the new M6 if you're in manual mode and don't flick a paddle to shift up a gear it will stick at the rev limiter and will NOT shift up.

Does is change down of its accord as you slow? The Audi S-Tronic in the R8 does and I don't like that it does. In manual mode, I want all gear changes to be made by me.

No, but it won't let you stall it, I think of you're in 7th gear for example and you slow to a halt it will downshift to 3rd but otherwise no it won't.

Basically, if you are driving in manual mode it'll hold a gear as long as possible until the engine would stall (and in that scenario you wouldn't do it in a car with a manual box anyway.... Unless the extra control you want is the ability to bog your engine down and stall it?).

Is that good enough for those who want more control?
It'll let you start in 3rd gear as well, and well, frankly, quite why in a manual you'd want to start in anything above that (other than having control for controls sake) is beyond me, as you'll do a bit of harm to the clutch.

[jamieduff1981]

E65Ross said:

Zod said:

E65Ross said:

Just to confirm, asked my old man (it's been a while since I drove it!) that on the new M6 if you're in manual mode and don't flick a paddle to shift up a gear it will stick at the rev limiter and will NOT shift up.

Does is change down of its accord as you slow? The Audi S-Tronic in the R8 does and I don't like that it does. In manual mode, I want all gear changes to be made by me.

No, but it won't let you stall it, I think of you're in 7th gear for example and you slow to a halt it will downshift to 3rd but otherwise no it won't.

Basically, if you are driving in manual mode it'll hold a gear as long as possible until the engine would stall (and in that scenario you wouldn't do it in a car with a manual box anyway.... Unless the extra control you want is the ability to bog your engine down and stall it?).

Is that good enough for those who want more control?
It'll let you start in 3rd gear as well, and well, frankly, quite why in a manual you'd want to start in anything above that (other than having control for controls sake) is beyond me, as you'll do a bit of harm to the clutch.

Spot on. My gearbox behaves the same way. It'll downchange uncommanded to avoid stalling but otherwise it leaves you to get on with it and if you don't change up quick enough you will bounce off the rev limiter.

After having to change a few clutches by myself after wrecking them, it became very apparent that pressure clutches are not suitable for the sort of abuse many here claim is an essential part of enjoyable driving. As I have some genuinely powerful cars, enjoyment for me is more about getting as much throttle opening as possible WITHOUT spinning the wheels - particularly in the TVR. Stating a car/engine/gearbox/tyre combination is crap because it speeds up like it's supposed to instead of shredding tyres and making acrid smoke seems a bit chavvy to be honest.

[HertsBiker]

Wheelspin is stupid and counter productive... But strangely fun. My car won't spin up and I'm quite happy, it just gets on with the important stuff of moving off faster than the car next to me!

[Qwert1e]

A manual may ensure "involvement" but these days it certainly doesn't ensure "speed"!

[Zod]

E65Ross said:

Zod said:

E65Ross said:

Just to confirm, asked my old man (it's been a while since I drove it!) that on the new M6 if you're in manual mode and don't flick a paddle to shift up a gear it will stick at the rev limiter and will NOT shift up.

Does is change down of its accord as you slow? The Audi S-Tronic in the R8 does and I don't like that it does. In manual mode, I want all gear changes to be made by me.

No, but it won't let you stall it, I think of you're in 7th gear for example and you slow to a halt it will downshift to 3rd but otherwise no it won't.

Basically, if you are driving in manual mode it'll hold a gear as long as possible until the engine would stall (and in that scenario you wouldn't do it in a car with a manual box anyway.... Unless the extra control you want is the ability to bog your engine down and stall it?).

Is that good enough for those who want more control?
It'll let you start in 3rd gear as well, and well, frankly, quite why in a manual you'd want to start in anything above that (other than having control for controls sake) is beyond me, as you'll do a bit of harm to the clutch.

That's fine for me. All my SMG M cars behaved that way.

[cerb4.5lee]

jamieduff1981 said:

As I have some genuinely powerful cars, enjoyment for me is more about getting as much throttle opening as possible WITHOUT spinning the wheels

I have said many times on this thread how much I hate the auto in my 330i but what I will say is its the only RWD car I have owned where you can use full throttle in the wet or dry in all gears and it just grips and goes and never ever loses traction, it is terribly boring but I take my hat to it with how balanced it is and how the auto obviously plays its part as it delivers the power in a very calm way.

Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.

[ORD]

cerb4.5lee said:

I have said many times on this thread how much I hate the auto in my 330i but what I will say is its the only RWD car I have owned where you can use full throttle in the wet or dry in all gears and it just grips and goes and never ever loses traction, it is terribly boring but I take my hat to it with how balanced it is and how the auto obviously plays its part as it delivers the power in a very calm way.

Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.

Slushy clutch feeding torque slowly plus very invasive traction control, I expect.

[cerb4.5lee]

ORD said:

cerb4.5lee said:

I have said many times on this thread how much I hate the auto in my 330i but what I will say is its the only RWD car I have owned where you can use full throttle in the wet or dry in all gears and it just grips and goes and never ever loses traction, it is terribly boring but I take my hat to it with how balanced it is and how the auto obviously plays its part as it delivers the power in a very calm way.

Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.

Slushy clutch feeding torque slowly plus very invasive traction control, I expect.

Even in the wet you can plant your foot down and the traction light wont even flicker because the 330i hasn't got much torque and I agree the auto helps matters big time but you couldn't do the same in our old 330d auto though the traction light used to light up like a Christmas tree even in the dry.

I was shocked when I first got the 330i and I said to the mrs the traction control never interferes and very rarely comes on in it but in the 330d that used to eat rear pads quicker than the fronts because the traction control was always needed to rein the torque in.

[jamieduff1981]

My 3.0 S-Type was very similar. It just accelerated even in the wet. It was still well balanced and rewarding to drive though. It just feels like it's a well sorted chassis - and it was because it's the same chassis everyone fawned over when it was rebodied as the XF back in 2007.

In a daily driver that's what near enough everybody wants. When I reach a wet T-junction, I can just say "sod it - I'm going anyway" and plant the foot and the car will join the flow of traffic briskly and without fuss. As I've said in various places too, despite the common wisdom of most, that car refuses to be useless in the snow. The S-Type was for me the perfect blend of affordable, relaxing, extremely comfortable commuter car which in sport guise at least had well sorted suspension that made the car willing to be hustled down curvy roads quickly.


Perhaps what this thread, and BMW 3-series discussion in particular is demonstrating is that the very concept of owning a single "good all rounder" is epically stupid if you a) have life beyond hooning which you need to get on with and b) enjoy driving sometimes.

A good every-day car (with a big engine, automatic gearbox and climate control) and a good toy car (with a manual gearbox and a TVR badge on the front) is the way to go.

The jack of all trades is always the master of none.

[bennyboysvuk]

cerb4.5lee said:

jamieduff1981 said:

As I have some genuinely powerful cars, enjoyment for me is more about getting as much throttle opening as possible WITHOUT spinning the wheels

I have said many times on this thread how much I hate the auto in my 330i but what I will say is its the only RWD car I have owned where you can use full throttle in the wet or dry in all gears and it just grips and goes and never ever loses traction, it is terribly boring but I take my hat to it with how balanced it is and how the auto obviously plays its part as it delivers the power in a very calm way.

Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.

My old Z4M had some shocking tyres that in the wet would see it wheelspinning at the top of third and sometimes into fourth gear too. It was huge fun controlling all of that.

As for our 330is, I'm not sure I'd call them balanced, it seems that BMW did absolutely everything they could to ensure the rear wheels never lose traction, ever.

[lord trumpton]

jamieduff1981 said:

My 3.0 S-Type was very similar. It just accelerated even in the wet. It was still well balanced and rewarding to drive though. It just feels like it's a well sorted chassis - and it was because it's the same chassis everyone fawned over when it was rebodied as the XF back in 2007.

In a daily driver that's what near enough everybody wants. When I reach a wet T-junction, I can just say "sod it - I'm going anyway" and plant the foot and the car will join the flow of traffic briskly and without fuss. As I've said in various places too, despite the common wisdom of most, that car refuses to be useless in the snow. The S-Type was for me the perfect blend of affordable, relaxing, extremely comfortable commuter car which in sport guise at least had well sorted suspension that made the car willing to be hustled down curvy roads quickly.


Perhaps what this thread, and BMW 3-series discussion in particular is demonstrating is that the very concept of owning a single "good all rounder" is epically stupid if you a) have life beyond hooning which you need to get on with and b) enjoy driving sometimes.

A good every-day car (with a big engine, automatic gearbox and climate control) and a good toy car (with a manual gearbox and a TVR badge on the front) is the way to go.

The jack of all trades is always the master of none.

Yeah Id agree with most of that - not the TVR bit though

M Power

[jamieduff1981]

lord trumpton said:

jamieduff1981 said:

My 3.0 S-Type was very similar. It just accelerated even in the wet. It was still well balanced and rewarding to drive though. It just feels like it's a well sorted chassis - and it was because it's the same chassis everyone fawned over when it was rebodied as the XF back in 2007.

In a daily driver that's what near enough everybody wants. When I reach a wet T-junction, I can just say "sod it - I'm going anyway" and plant the foot and the car will join the flow of traffic briskly and without fuss. As I've said in various places too, despite the common wisdom of most, that car refuses to be useless in the snow. The S-Type was for me the perfect blend of affordable, relaxing, extremely comfortable commuter car which in sport guise at least had well sorted suspension that made the car willing to be hustled down curvy roads quickly.


Perhaps what this thread, and BMW 3-series discussion in particular is demonstrating is that the very concept of owning a single "good all rounder" is epically stupid if you a) have life beyond hooning which you need to get on with and b) enjoy driving sometimes.

A good every-day car (with a big engine, automatic gearbox and climate control) and a good toy car (with a manual gearbox and a TVR badge on the front) is the way to go.

The jack of all trades is always the master of none.

Yeah Id agree with most of that - not the TVR bit though

M Power

Well nobody's perfect

[ORD]

I think there's some truth in that, but I do think there are (or should be) some cars that can meet a lot of a person's driving needs/wants. For me, it would have to have the following:-

(1) Minimum of 160bhp/ton so it will at least go.
(2) Firmish suspension but a comfortable low speed and motorway ride.
(3) Proper back seats and an OK boot.
(4) Decently weighted steering with a bit of feel.
(5) Close to 30mpg so it's not too ridiculously expensive to run.
(6) 6 cylinders.
(7) A good 6MT

[McSatan]

I've got various nice cars I could come to work in every day, with 350(ish)bhp and SMG/tiptronic stuff, but I invariably choose the 12 year old MR2 with its 140bhp and manual gearbox. Undoubtedly, the others would be faster and less 'work,' but there's something so very satisfying about getting it just right. Having said that, if the 20-odd miles were on an urban dual carriageway instead of mostly traffic free A & B roads, I'd probably pick one of the others. Horses for courses, innit. It'd be a bit of a bugger if you could only buy cars that knew what's best.

[DonkeyApple]

jamieduff1981 said:

My 3.0 S-Type was very similar. It just accelerated even in the wet. It was still well balanced and rewarding to drive though. It just feels like it's a well sorted chassis - and it was because it's the same chassis everyone fawned over when it was rebodied as the XF back in 2007.

In a daily driver that's what near enough everybody wants. When I reach a wet T-junction, I can just say "sod it - I'm going anyway" and plant the foot and the car will join the flow of traffic briskly and without fuss. As I've said in various places too, despite the common wisdom of most, that car refuses to be useless in the snow. The S-Type was for me the perfect blend of affordable, relaxing, extremely comfortable commuter car which in sport guise at least had well sorted suspension that made the car willing to be hustled down curvy roads quickly.


Perhaps what this thread, and BMW 3-series discussion in particular is demonstrating is that the very concept of owning a single "good all rounder" is epically stupid if you a) have life beyond hooning which you need to get on with and b) enjoy driving sometimes.

A good every-day car (with a big engine, automatic gearbox and climate control) and a good toy car (with a manual gearbox and a TVR badge on the front) is the way to go.

The jack of all trades is always the master of none.

For the last 10 or 15 years I've always had a big V8 saloon or SUV and a Tiv.

As you say, you have everything covered. And by having a big V8 in your practical car when you find yourself unplanned on roads where the TVR would be wonderful you can still have some fun.

[E65Ross]

I'm really surprised that even in 1st gear in the wet a 330i won't spin it's wheels. 2 reasons.... I know for a fact (having driven one) an E46 330i auto will, and my old man used to have a Merc CLK350 cab which had a 7 speed auto and 272bhp and that would also quite easily spin the wheels up. I can't see why the 330i wouldn't. My 745i can quite easily set the traction control light flickering, sure it has more power but it's got 275 section rear tyres and it's a big old bd to move as well.

You're honestly saying that if it's wet and you are crawling along in 1st gear and nail the throttle it won't spin the wheels? If that's the case, are you therefore saying that it will accelerate at an identical rate in the wet as in the dry? In theory, I suppose you must be?

[cerb4.5lee]

jamieduff1981 said:

Perhaps what this thread, and BMW 3-series discussion in particular is demonstrating is that the very concept of owning a single "good all rounder" is epically stupid if you a) have life beyond hooning which you need to get on with and b) enjoy driving sometimes.

A good every-day car (with a big engine, automatic gearbox and climate control) and a good toy car (with a manual gearbox and a TVR badge on the front) is the way to go.

The jack of all trades is always the master of none.

Spot on!

I can genuinely say I was at my happiest car wise when I had my Cerbera in the garage as a weekender and my X5 4.8iS as my daily because I had the best of both worlds and two nice V8`s....I just couldn't cope with the fuel bills though!!

Edited by cerb4.5lee on Thursday 24th July 10:23

[cerb4.5lee]

bennyboysvuk said:

As for our 330is, I'm not sure I'd call them balanced, it seems that BMW did absolutely everything they could to ensure the rear wheels never lose traction, ever.

I didn't think it was possible Ben but I certainly think you hate yours even more than I do!