The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings
Discussion
E65Ross said:
I'm really surprised that even in 1st gear in the wet a 330i won't spin it's wheels. 2 reasons.... I know for a fact (having driven one) an E46 330i auto will, and my old man used to have a Merc CLK350 cab which had a 7 speed auto and 272bhp and that would also quite easily spin the wheels up. I can't see why the 330i wouldn't. My 745i can quite easily set the traction control light flickering, sure it has more power but it's got 275 section rear tyres and it's a big old b
d to move as well.
You're honestly saying that if it's wet and you are crawling along in 1st gear and nail the throttle it won't spin the wheels? If that's the case, are you therefore saying that it will accelerate at an identical rate in the wet as in the dry? In theory, I suppose you must be?
In manual mode in first gear if you plant it in the dry pulling out of a junction they will slip a very tiny bit with the traction off, in fairness I haven't tried doing the same thing in the wet but just left in drive you can plant your foot fully down and it will grip all the way from standstill to high speeds without any slip whatsoever and I was genuinely impressed by that. d to move as well. You're honestly saying that if it's wet and you are crawling along in 1st gear and nail the throttle it won't spin the wheels? If that's the case, are you therefore saying that it will accelerate at an identical rate in the wet as in the dry? In theory, I suppose you must be?
ORD said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I have said many times on this thread how much I hate the auto in my 330i but what I will say is its the only RWD car I have owned where you can use full throttle in the wet or dry in all gears and it just grips and goes and never ever loses traction, it is terribly boring but I take my hat to it with how balanced it is and how the auto obviously plays its part as it delivers the power in a very calm way.
Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.
Slushy clutch feeding torque slowly plus very invasive traction control, I expect. Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.
I agree the torque converter plays a part in this with the harsh throttle input 'smoothed' by the slack taken up in it. Neither had t/c (the 328 being an earlier pre-facelift model before they introduced ASC+T).
Could it be the 330i is starting in second as a default? A lot of the boxes mated to big engines do that and only revert to first from standstill in 'Sport' mode.
I'll admit, I prefer driving my manual 328 as I do like that extra element of control. However, given that it's my daily driver, this is probably an issue only 10% of time when pushing on.
Perhaps others have more exciting drives to work. For me an auto would be absolutely fine (and preferable if stuck in traffic on the M25 or A12).
g3org3y said:
ORD said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I have said many times on this thread how much I hate the auto in my 330i but what I will say is its the only RWD car I have owned where you can use full throttle in the wet or dry in all gears and it just grips and goes and never ever loses traction, it is terribly boring but I take my hat to it with how balanced it is and how the auto obviously plays its part as it delivers the power in a very calm way.
Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.
Slushy clutch feeding torque slowly plus very invasive traction control, I expect. Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.
I agree the torque converter plays a part in this with the harsh throttle input 'smoothed' by the slack taken up in it. Neither had t/c (the 328 being an earlier pre-facelift model before they introduced ASC+T).
Could it be the 330i is starting in second as a default? A lot of the boxes mated to big engines do that and only revert to first from standstill in 'Sport' mode.
I'll admit, I prefer driving my manual 328 as I do like that extra element of control. However, given that it's my daily driver, this is probably an issue only 10% of time when pushing on.
Perhaps others have more exciting drives to work. For me an auto would be absolutely fine (and preferable if stuck in traffic on the M25 or A12).
cerb4.5lee said:
g3org3y said:
ORD said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I have said many times on this thread how much I hate the auto in my 330i but what I will say is its the only RWD car I have owned where you can use full throttle in the wet or dry in all gears and it just grips and goes and never ever loses traction, it is terribly boring but I take my hat to it with how balanced it is and how the auto obviously plays its part as it delivers the power in a very calm way.
Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.
Slushy clutch feeding torque slowly plus very invasive traction control, I expect. Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.
I agree the torque converter plays a part in this with the harsh throttle input 'smoothed' by the slack taken up in it. Neither had t/c (the 328 being an earlier pre-facelift model before they introduced ASC+T).
Could it be the 330i is starting in second as a default? A lot of the boxes mated to big engines do that and only revert to first from standstill in 'Sport' mode.
I'll admit, I prefer driving my manual 328 as I do like that extra element of control. However, given that it's my daily driver, this is probably an issue only 10% of time when pushing on.
Perhaps others have more exciting drives to work. For me an auto would be absolutely fine (and preferable if stuck in traffic on the M25 or A12).
jamieduff1981 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
g3org3y said:
ORD said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I have said many times on this thread how much I hate the auto in my 330i but what I will say is its the only RWD car I have owned where you can use full throttle in the wet or dry in all gears and it just grips and goes and never ever loses traction, it is terribly boring but I take my hat to it with how balanced it is and how the auto obviously plays its part as it delivers the power in a very calm way.
Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.
Slushy clutch feeding torque slowly plus very invasive traction control, I expect. Drive my old manual 200sx/z4m/m3/cerb in the wet full throttle and a tree/lamppost/field awaits but the 330 will just grip and go with zero fuss so I suppose it deserves some credit in that situation.
I agree the torque converter plays a part in this with the harsh throttle input 'smoothed' by the slack taken up in it. Neither had t/c (the 328 being an earlier pre-facelift model before they introduced ASC+T).
Could it be the 330i is starting in second as a default? A lot of the boxes mated to big engines do that and only revert to first from standstill in 'Sport' mode.
I'll admit, I prefer driving my manual 328 as I do like that extra element of control. However, given that it's my daily driver, this is probably an issue only 10% of time when pushing on.
Perhaps others have more exciting drives to work. For me an auto would be absolutely fine (and preferable if stuck in traffic on the M25 or A12).
Too right! things are looking positive though as the mrs said the other day that I ought to get another Cerbera and I didn't think she would ever say that again so the future is bright!
I can tell you that I was bloody glad I had an auto on the way into work Tuesday.......2 (yes, 2!) separate accidents on the M27 meant it was stop start for ages; I remember being stuck in traffic that heavy in a manual car and absolutely hating it.
99+ percent of my driving is commuting or town, I very rarely do country roads etc and so 99+ percent of the time the auto is the perfect tool for the job. that <1% of the time I do yearn for a manual box, but yearning <1% of the time isn't enough to make me buy one.
If I moved closer to work (20 miles each way....I know, in a V8, fuel bills aren't ideal!) then I may well choose a car with a manual box, but only in a car which is less of a barge. For me, I think the biggest a car can be with a manual is something like an M3. Anything bigger and moer barge like an auto just seems to work better in my opinion. Again, depends what you want from the car.
you could start another thread "manual gearbox and its failings" and complain about how you have to use your left arm and leg to change gear when you could have a computer do it for you; how it's slower, less efficient; or how if you're pootling along in 4th or 5th gear (or higher) and suddenly need to overtake someone and nail the throttle you find yourself in the wrong gear and the time to change gear and floor it is too slow, when an automatic or DCT box will downshift 2-3 gears in the blink of an eye and bam you're gone.......I had that exact scenario yesterday I was on a dual carriageway 70mph limit overtaking someone before it went into 1 lane and they suddenly decided to speed up so I had to floor it, at the time I was in 6th gear but the car quickly shifted into 3rd and got a shift on and I got round them, in a manual car I'd probably have been caught out and got stuck behind them.
99+ percent of my driving is commuting or town, I very rarely do country roads etc and so 99+ percent of the time the auto is the perfect tool for the job. that <1% of the time I do yearn for a manual box, but yearning <1% of the time isn't enough to make me buy one.
If I moved closer to work (20 miles each way....I know, in a V8, fuel bills aren't ideal!) then I may well choose a car with a manual box, but only in a car which is less of a barge. For me, I think the biggest a car can be with a manual is something like an M3. Anything bigger and moer barge like an auto just seems to work better in my opinion. Again, depends what you want from the car.
you could start another thread "manual gearbox and its failings" and complain about how you have to use your left arm and leg to change gear when you could have a computer do it for you; how it's slower, less efficient; or how if you're pootling along in 4th or 5th gear (or higher) and suddenly need to overtake someone and nail the throttle you find yourself in the wrong gear and the time to change gear and floor it is too slow, when an automatic or DCT box will downshift 2-3 gears in the blink of an eye and bam you're gone.......I had that exact scenario yesterday I was on a dual carriageway 70mph limit overtaking someone before it went into 1 lane and they suddenly decided to speed up so I had to floor it, at the time I was in 6th gear but the car quickly shifted into 3rd and got a shift on and I got round them, in a manual car I'd probably have been caught out and got stuck behind them.
cerb4.5lee said:
In manual mode in first gear if you plant it in the dry pulling out of a junction they will slip a very tiny bit with the traction off, in fairness I haven't tried doing the same thing in the wet but just left in drive you can plant your foot fully down and it will grip all the way from standstill to high speeds without any slip whatsoever and I was genuinely impressed by that.
As I mentioned earlier many cars use the throttle pedal as an input to the ecu with the latter making the decision on how much to actually open the engines throttle. I know my 370z will only open the throttle 70% maximum in first gear , and about 85-90% in second , to help support traction , that may well be the case with yours Luckily this can be mapped out
liner33 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
In manual mode in first gear if you plant it in the dry pulling out of a junction they will slip a very tiny bit with the traction off, in fairness I haven't tried doing the same thing in the wet but just left in drive you can plant your foot fully down and it will grip all the way from standstill to high speeds without any slip whatsoever and I was genuinely impressed by that.
As I mentioned earlier many cars use the throttle pedal as an input to the ecu with the latter making the decision on how much to actually open the engines throttle. I know my 370z will only open the throttle 70% maximum in first gear , and about 85-90% in second , to help support traction , that may well be the case with yours Luckily this can be mapped out
Clivey said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Too right! things are looking positive though as the mrs said the other day that I ought to get another Cerbera and I didn't think she would ever say that again so the future is bright!
I will give it time to find the one I really want and go from there.
cerb4.5lee said:
I will give it time to find the one I really want and go from there.
There's a stunning Mk1 Tuscan S in the classifieds at the moment (my dream car and owned by a PH'er). I WISH I could take it off his hands. Maybe in a few years.Clivey said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I will give it time to find the one I really want and go from there.
There's a stunning Mk1 Tuscan S in the classifieds at the moment (my dream car and owned by a PH'er). I WISH I could take it off his hands. Maybe in a few years.
cerb4.5lee said:
I didn't think it was possible Ben but I certainly think you hate yours even more than I do!
You may be right. I wrote a list earlier with 23 items on it that annoy me about the car. They're nearly all things that probably wouldn't frustrate anyone that didn't have an interest in cars though. I really feel that a Mondeo for half the price would do just as good a job as the 330 and possibly better it in the handling department.E65Ross said:
I'm really surprised that even in 1st gear in the wet a 330i won't spin it's wheels. 2 reasons.... I know for a fact (having driven one) an E46 330i auto will, and my old man used to have a Merc CLK350 cab which had a 7 speed auto and 272bhp and that would also quite easily spin the wheels up. I can't see why the 330i wouldn't. My 745i can quite easily set the traction control light flickering, sure it has more power but it's got 275 section rear tyres and it's a big old bd to move as well.
You're honestly saying that if it's wet and you are crawling along in 1st gear and nail the throttle it won't spin the wheels? If that's the case, are you therefore saying that it will accelerate at an identical rate in the wet as in the dry? In theory, I suppose you must be?
The next time an opportunity comes to try it I'll give it a go on a few different surfaces and post my findings. In the wet in the Z4M it was epic and if the DSC was left on the light would flash continually from standstill to the top end of third. The 330 feels nothing at all like that. I have to say that it feels like the gearbox feeds the power in so that it does so very gently initially in order to transfer some weight to the rear for improved traction, before allowing any further torque through. It's almost like turbo-lag - my worst nightmare!d to move as well. You're honestly saying that if it's wet and you are crawling along in 1st gear and nail the throttle it won't spin the wheels? If that's the case, are you therefore saying that it will accelerate at an identical rate in the wet as in the dry? In theory, I suppose you must be?
liner33 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
In manual mode in first gear if you plant it in the dry pulling out of a junction they will slip a very tiny bit with the traction off, in fairness I haven't tried doing the same thing in the wet but just left in drive you can plant your foot fully down and it will grip all the way from standstill to high speeds without any slip whatsoever and I was genuinely impressed by that.
As I mentioned earlier many cars use the throttle pedal as an input to the ecu with the latter making the decision on how much to actually open the engines throttle. I know my 370z will only open the throttle 70% maximum in first gear , and about 85-90% in second , to help support traction , that may well be the case with yours Luckily this can be mapped out
Clivey said:
I only have a 170ps 320i (2003, E46, manual) but can spin the rears (255 wide!) through 2nd in the wet if I want to. In the dry, it's like a limpet unless you're acting like a hooligan.
That's interesting, I'm trying to recall a drive that I did back in the wet one night in winter when I was trying to provoke the back a little. It took a lot of effort and the right radius of corner to get the chassis set up to even get the back moving, let alone getting the wheels spinning in a straight line.Interesting that you can use it in a hooligan manner and get spin whereas I get no spin at all throughout 1st gear in a car with another 80hp. I tried a few things last night like holding both pedals down and lifting off the brake. It felt brutal to do, but didn't feel any different to pulling away going from brake to throttle and gave no wheelspin. I tried dropping the car from neutral into drive with some meaningful revs showing, but the 'box won't let me select drive if the revs are much higher than at tickover, so I had to put my foot on the foot brake again and wait for the revs to die down before selecting drive. The car feels like it's been intentionally shot in the foot by BMW. It won't dance in the dry whatever I try.
Kawasicki said:
There are many cars on the market that have torque limits in low gears, it's not for traction, it's to protect the driveline
^^^^ This. Torque management is an essential part of modern car engineering. All of the engineering can be run much closer to the limits if there's a computer to protect the oily bits from an ape in the driving seat.One reason manufacturers like autos is the transmission protects their carefully built cars from idiot drivers!!
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