The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings

[ORD]

jamieduff1981 said:

Specifically I'm referring to ORD claiming it's not any different from the sorts of old 4 and 5 speed autos from decades ago, based upon test driving a few BMWs.

I read that and thought "I didn't say that, did I?". It turns out that I did, and I went too far. They are obviously different and better, but I don't think they justify all the plaudits and the suggestion that there is no point getting the manual.

[JagXJR]

ORD said:

Dramatic oversteer is what he was after - he was trying to get the back end to let go so that he could slide it a bit.

I applaud BMW for engineering out the ability to behave like a hooligan TBH.

Fine on the track but no place for it on the roads. If your wheels are spinning then you are not in full control of the vehicle. So well done BMW, gone up (slightly) in my estimation

[E65Ross]

ORD said:

I read that and thought "I didn't say that, did I?". It turns out that I did, and I went too far. They are obviously different and better, but I don't think they justify all the plaudits and the suggestion that there is no point getting the manual.

I agree. But as stated before there used to be several reasons to opt for a manual

fun, economy, performance, more ratios, quicker shifting, more control etc etc

Now, it's purely fun/involvement. That's it. For most people, changing manually is a chore.

[JagXJR]

jamieduff1981 said:

As mentioned numerous times in this thread and others, BMW haven't quite got the hang of this ZF gearbox lark and absolutely should not be used to judge the capabilities of the gearbox. JLR are far superior at programming it.

Fully agree!

[zeppelin101]

ORD said:

I read that and thought "I didn't say that, did I?". It turns out that I did, and I went too far. They are obviously different and better, but I don't think they justify all the plaudits and the suggestion that there is no point getting the manual.

Personally at the end of a long day at work the last thing I want to be doing at times is continually changing gear to drive through town to get back home. I'm not exactly the only one either.

An auto / DCT at least gives you the option of just getting from A to B and not concerning yourself with the gearbox or flicking through some gears yourself. No, there is none of the tactility involved in changing gear and it's a very different experience but that's just it - it's different, not worse in my view.

I enjoyed very much the Polo BlueGT I had use of for a bit which had the DCT box in it. I could just let it get on with it when I wasn't in the mood or drive it "properly" and get some interaction with the gearbox myself. I very much doubt I would have enjoyed a manual car as much.

IMO, the please involved in manually changing gear is almost none existent in day-to-day driving. There is too much traffic, or you're travelling at a constant speed anyway. On the rare occasion you can get out on the roads and go for a blast, then I agree completely, a manual is more satisfying.

Day-to-day however it just isn't, and I'm far from the only person who thinks so.

[Lowtimer]

jamieduff1981 said:

Funny then that this thread is full of so much criticism for it in the 330i type applications then.

People complaining about the autobox in a 330i are complaining about the old 6-speed box in the E90, not the current 8-speed box.

There is no 330i in the F30 3-series range, which is the range in which the 8-speed box was first used in the 3-series.

[jamieduff1981]

ORD said:

jamieduff1981 said:

Specifically I'm referring to ORD claiming it's not any different from the sorts of old 4 and 5 speed autos from decades ago, based upon test driving a few BMWs.

I read that and thought "I didn't say that, did I?". It turns out that I did, and I went too far. They are obviously different and better, but I don't think they justify all the plaudits and the suggestion that there is no point getting the manual.

Fair cop - that's far more rational than the way I read the last post.

I'm possibly a bit harsh on BMW too for what it's worth.

I guess it's easy to lose perspective a bit when posting about the more subjective preferences in cars.

[balls-out]

JagXJR said:

I applaud BMW for engineering out the ability to behave like a hooligan TBH.

Fine on the track but no place for it on the roads. If your wheels are spinning then you are not in full control of the vehicle. So well done BMW, gone up (slightly) in my estimation

I don't actually think 'full control of the vehicle' means anything. What does Full mean? If you are listening to the radio then a small part of your mind is occupied on something other than driving, so are you not then in "full" control?

Control is a range, from total concentration at 5mph (I guess you might call that FULL control) to 150mph with both eyes closed and your hand behind your head.

So next time you pull away on the snow and get a little wheel spin, you had better be on a race track.

Personally I love to light 'em up whenever I can... I think I'm in more control than most of the MLD/texting/snoozing drivers in the cocoons.

"engineering out the ability to behave like a hooligan " - well you may look forward to the driverless car where everthing is done for you, but I don't.

Edited by balls-out on Thursday 7th August 12:43

[bennyboysvuk]

ORD said:

I was pretty amazed at the lack of turn in on the F30 that I drove recently. It has made me really question everything that Autocar says given that they rate that car as "sublime". It handles like an Audi.

That's a disturbing line to read. It's the thing that used to distinguish BMW from most other manufacturers (Audi do 4x4 understeer, Merc do comfort/GTs and BMW used to be capable of making an all rounder with driver involvement). Is it only the M cars that are any good any more?

[bennyboysvuk]

JagXJR said:

I applaud BMW for engineering out the ability to behave like a hooligan TBH.

Fine on the track but no place for it on the roads. If your wheels are spinning and you're upside down in a field then you were not in full control of the vehicle. So well done BMW, gone up (slightly) in my estimation

That's better.

[ORD]

bennyboysvuk said:

That's a disturbing line to read. It's the thing that used to distinguish BMW from most other manufacturers (Audi do 4x4 understeer, Merc do comfort/GTs and BMW used to be capable of making an all rounder with driver involvement). Is it only the M cars that are any good any more?

Probably overly harsh. Nothing handles as badly as an Audi

[Fox-]

Zod said:

I agree that it is utter tripe.I've owned the box in both petrol (50i) and diesel (40d) cars and it is hte first automatic gearbox ever to have impressed me. It is so good that I hardly ever think to use the paddles.

Agreed. Typically I dislike autos - I spent months buying my two previous cars - an E39 530i and an E92 335i - because I absolutely insisted they must be manual. I've driven autos extensively as hire cars in the US and Australia and usually found them frustratingly poor and always in the wrong gear ready to spoil whatever it is I was doing.

Then I drove an F10 with the 8 Speed ZF Auto and it was like a revelation - so good that I knew I had to have that box and that box alone. I cannot think of a single criticism of the box, it is sublime and I didn't even entertain the idea of a manual version.

[JagXJR]

balls-out said:

I don't actually think 'full control of the vehicle' means anything. What does Full mean? If you are listening to the radio then a small part of your mind is occupied on something other than driving, so are you not then in "full" control?

Control is a range, from total concentration at 5mph (I guess you might call that FULL control) to 150mph with both eyes closed and your hand behind your head.

So next time you pull away on the snow and get a little wheel spin, you had better be on a race track.

Personally I love to light 'em up whenever I can... I think I'm in more control than most of the MLD/texting/snoozing drivers in the cocoons.

"engineering out the ability to behave like a hooligan " - well you may look forward to the driverless car where everthing is done for you, but I don't.

Edited by balls-out on Thursday 7th August 12:43

The control I am talking about is the legal definition.

You very well may be a better driver than most, you still should obey the law. Meaning being in control of your car. Your definition of control may be different to the police and the judge's

I don't look forward to driverless cars either but there is no doubt they will be safer for "the MLD/texting/snoozing drivers in the cocoons"!

That is where the technology is heading, making things safer. That may well be the answer for the OP's question. It is to stop you spinning your wheels "upside down in a field" (or anywhere else)?

Admittedly it takes the fun out of driving too

[liner33]

E65Ross said:

ORD said:

I read that and thought "I didn't say that, did I?". It turns out that I did, and I went too far. They are obviously different and better, but I don't think they justify all the plaudits and the suggestion that there is no point getting the manual.

I agree. But as stated before there used to be several reasons to opt for a manual

fun, economy, performance, more ratios, quicker shifting, more control etc etc

Now, it's purely fun/involvement. That's it. For most people, changing manually is a chore.

many times autos are quicker and have more ratios and change so significantly quicker , 5 times faster in my car (non dsg)

[Patrick Bateman]

lufbramatt said:

Way off topic now but in most of the engines in a E39 the temperature varies from about 85 to 108 degrees anyway depending on load. The thermostat is controlled by the ECU to run the engine at a higher temp whilst cruising to lower emissions, but can lower it to increase power under heavy load. But the gauge always stays in the middle It's the running at such a high temp+pressure that leads to the weak cooling systems in these cars.

My point was needle would be unlikely to even reach the middle on the gauge if the thermostat was shot.

[E65Ross]

Patrick Bateman said:

lufbramatt said:

Way off topic now but in most of the engines in a E39 the temperature varies from about 85 to 108 degrees anyway depending on load. The thermostat is controlled by the ECU to run the engine at a higher temp whilst cruising to lower emissions, but can lower it to increase power under heavy load. But the gauge always stays in the middle It's the running at such a high temp+pressure that leads to the weak cooling systems in these cars.

My point was needle would be unlikely to even reach the middle on the gauge if the thermostat was shot.

You do realise it's actually quite simple to get a digital read out of the coolant temp in modern BMW's, right?

For the record, I had a thermostat fail on my E38 and the temp gauge was so, so slightly under 1/2 I didn't think anything of it. What I did notice was a dramatic reduction in fuel consumption. It was that which led me to getting the car checked out. So in my case, it didn't help me having a gauge.

Oh, this was in winter as well. The digital read out showed the coolant reaching 71degs IIRC. 1/2 on the gauge was 75+ but I knee that normal operating temp was 93, so got the car looked at.

[Patrick Bateman]

E65Ross said:

You do realise it's actually quite simple to get a digital read out of the coolant temp in modern BMW's, right?

For the record, I had a thermostat fail on my E38 and the temp gauge was so, so slightly under 1/2 I didn't think anything of it. What I did notice was a dramatic reduction in fuel consumption. It was that which led me to getting the car checked out. So in my case, it didn't help me having a gauge.

Oh, this was in winter as well. The digital read out showed the coolant reaching 71degs IIRC. 1/2 on the gauge was 75+ but I knee that normal operating temp was 93, so got the car looked at.

Only because you didn't think anything of the subtle indication it gave.

Yes it's easy enough to get a digital readout but it's even easier to glance at the gauge and almost immediately tell if the car's not getting up to temperature when it should be.

[E65Ross]

Patrick Bateman said:

E65Ross said:

You do realise it's actually quite simple to get a digital read out of the coolant temp in modern BMW's, right?

For the record, I had a thermostat fail on my E38 and the temp gauge was so, so slightly under 1/2 I didn't think anything of it. What I did notice was a dramatic reduction in fuel consumption. It was that which led me to getting the car checked out. So in my case, it didn't help me having a gauge.

Oh, this was in winter as well. The digital read out showed the coolant reaching 71degs IIRC. 1/2 on the gauge was 75+ but I knee that normal operating temp was 93, so got the car looked at.

Only because you didn't think anything of the subtle indication it gave.

Yes it's easy enough to get a digital readout but it's even easier to glance at the gauge and almost immediately tell if the car's not getting up to temperature when it should be.

You can put smiley faces all you like, and I usually keep a close eye on gauges and if I didn't really notice it, you can bet your bottom dollar 99% of others wouldn't either. Honestly, it was about a hairs width from half way when it was -7 outside.... That's why I didn't think much of it.

[Patrick Bateman]

Probably because they wouldn't care. Regardless, if you do know what you're looking for it's a very quick and easy indication given the vast majority are meant to sit bang on 12 o'clock and not a hair either side.

[Thirsty33]

Fox- said:

Zod said:

I agree that it is utter tripe.I've owned the box in both petrol (50i) and diesel (40d) cars and it is hte first automatic gearbox ever to have impressed me. It is so good that I hardly ever think to use the paddles.

Agreed. Typically I dislike autos - I spent months buying my two previous cars - an E39 530i and an E92 335i - because I absolutely insisted they must be manual. I've driven autos extensively as hire cars in the US and Australia and usually found them frustratingly poor and always in the wrong gear ready to spoil whatever it is I was doing.

Then I drove an F10 with the 8 Speed ZF Auto and it was like a revelation - so good that I knew I had to have that box and that box alone. I cannot think of a single criticism of the box, it is sublime and I didn't even entertain the idea of a manual version.

My view too - I had similar issues to the OP and Zod's with Auto's - over 30 years driving a manual and I never found one I liked. Expensive, thirsty, never in the gear you wanted. Then I test drove an F10 with the ZF 8-speed. Game over. I'll grant you there are (a very few) times I would prefer a manual, but as someone commented, both are a compromise. But for me the ZF-8 tips the balance well in favour of auto's. It's even more economical than the manual. Things it does in an F10 that older boxes would not have done (on many cars at least):-

Holds gears going downhill to provide engine breaking without need for manual override
Does not change up to top when you de-throttle.
Has a semi-auto mode where it holds a manually selected gear while it detects steering, gradient or acceleration that it believes were the reason for your manual selection. When these cease drops back to full auto.
Doesn't hunt
Rarely holds a gear too long
Has an "ECO" mode which means you can drive it "torquey" - reduces the tendancy to overzealously downshift.

You can drive it sporty as you like in manual mode with paddles and way more smoothly than anyone can drive a manual.

Does not of course have a damned dual mass flywheel now beloved on modern manuals and destined to fail early and which cannot take the torque of modern diesels. It will of course cost the price of a small car to replace if it fails.

I would not go quite as far as Zod and say it's faultless, but I am very, very fussy.

Six pot F10's cannot now be bought with a manual gearbox, so you can see which way this is all going.