The Automatic Gearbox And Its Failings
Discussion
ORD said:
jamieduff1981 said:
ORD said:
E65Ross said:
Are you for real? The DCT box in the new M6 is every bit as smooth and good as an auto as the old 5 or 6 speed traditional autos. Only faster and more responsive. And more efficient. And they give you more control.
I've not driven the M6 so cant comment on that. I find the ZF's attempts to mimic a dual clutch box just make it neither one thing nor the other and a bit irritating to drive (except mated to a diesel engine, where it gets the most of the smoker, but that is mostly because of the number of ratios).It is a perfectly adequate 'box (and suits the diesels better than the petrol engines) but it is not better than a decent auto from years ago. Like a lot of things found in BMWs and/or VWs, it gets unjustifiably gushing reports from the motoring press.
PS: it's used in the Rolls Royce too, for what it's worth.
Thirsty33 said:
Things it does in an F10 that older boxes would not have done (on many cars at least):-
Holds gears going downhill to provide engine breaking without need for manual override
Does not change up to top when you de-throttle.
Doesn't hunt
Rarely holds a gear too long
Six pot F10's cannot now be bought with a manual gearbox, so you can see which way this is all going.
My five speed Jaguar box does all that. Seems the BMW engineers are catching up!Holds gears going downhill to provide engine breaking without need for manual override
Does not change up to top when you de-throttle.
Doesn't hunt
Rarely holds a gear too long
Six pot F10's cannot now be bought with a manual gearbox, so you can see which way this is all going.
V8 Jaguars for years have been auto only.
As stated the box changes from car to car depending on how it is programmed.
Looking forwards to trying a newer box in an Xk or F-type
JagXJR said:
Thirsty33 said:
Things it does in an F10 that older boxes would not have done (on many cars at least):-
Holds gears going downhill to provide engine breaking without need for manual override
Does not change up to top when you de-throttle.
Doesn't hunt
Rarely holds a gear too long
Six pot F10's cannot now be bought with a manual gearbox, so you can see which way this is all going.
My five speed Jaguar box does all that. Seems the BMW engineers are catching up!Holds gears going downhill to provide engine breaking without need for manual override
Does not change up to top when you de-throttle.
Doesn't hunt
Rarely holds a gear too long
Six pot F10's cannot now be bought with a manual gearbox, so you can see which way this is all going.
V8 Jaguars for years have been auto only.
As stated the box changes from car to car depending on how it is programmed.
Looking forwards to trying a newer box in an Xk or F-type
JagXJR said:
It seems from the OP's post this is not true!
Both our cars are 3 litres so why does his drive so differently?
Mine is 4 wheel drive though so spinning the wheels is not possible for a different reason.
The OP and my experiences differ vastly from the last 3 litre auto BMW I drove.Both our cars are 3 litres so why does his drive so differently?
Mine is 4 wheel drive though so spinning the wheels is not possible for a different reason.
A tooth fairy dies every time a car is sold as auto only. 
Whatever we think (and I am roughly in the middle on this issue), the worst thing is to be deprived the choice. I cannot imagine wanting a 6 cyl 3 series with the ZF box, which basically rules out the whole range for me. Without the manual box, there's little to get excited about other than straightline speed, which gets old very quickly.
Whatever we think (and I am roughly in the middle on this issue), the worst thing is to be deprived the choice. I cannot imagine wanting a 6 cyl 3 series with the ZF box, which basically rules out the whole range for me. Without the manual box, there's little to get excited about other than straightline speed, which gets old very quickly.
ORD said:
A tooth fairy dies every time a car is sold as auto only.
Whatever we think (and I am roughly in the middle on this issue), the worst thing is to be deprived the choice. I cannot imagine wanting a 6 cyl 3 series with the ZF box, which basically rules out the whole range for me. Without the manual box, there's little to get excited about other than straightline speed, which gets old very quickly.
I wouldn't want a 3-Series with anything other than a 6-pot. Fortunately, you still get the choice of gearbox with the 335i...not sure how long that will last, though. Whatever we think (and I am roughly in the middle on this issue), the worst thing is to be deprived the choice. I cannot imagine wanting a 6 cyl 3 series with the ZF box, which basically rules out the whole range for me. Without the manual box, there's little to get excited about other than straightline speed, which gets old very quickly.
In general though, I agree with you. - Choice is important. I've always dismissed certain cars because they aren't available with my preferred choice of transmission.
JagXJR said:
You have the choice with an auto, you don't with a manual. With a manual it is you change gear or nothing. An auto has the best of both worlds.
I was talking about the choice between auto and manual (which no longer exists for some cars).'Manual' mode in an auto is a million miles away from a manual transmission. It cannot be the best of both worlds because it isn't actually manual - it is just a gear selection mode (subject to override by the computer) in an automatic. It's more enjoyable than keeping the box in auto mode but it's nothing like as involving as actually changing gear yourself.
JagXJR said:
It seems from the OP's post this is not true!
Both our cars are 3 litres so why does his drive so differently?
Mine is 4 wheel drive though so spinning the wheels is not possible for a different reason.
I think it's probably our differing expectations of the gearbox, but I realise that it's not brilliant for the type of commute I have, which is when the car gets used most/hardest. It's great for driving grandparents around in though, when you're trying to drive very gently and very smoothly, it's just a shame that it's not very good at the other end of the envelope - fun and feedback.Both our cars are 3 litres so why does his drive so differently?
Mine is 4 wheel drive though so spinning the wheels is not possible for a different reason.
bennyboysvuk said:
JagXJR said:
It seems from the OP's post this is not true!
Both our cars are 3 litres so why does his drive so differently?
Mine is 4 wheel drive though so spinning the wheels is not possible for a different reason.
I think it's probably our differing expectations of the gearbox, but I realise that it's not brilliant for the type of commute I have, which is when the car gets used most/hardest. It's great for driving grandparents around in though, when you're trying to drive very gently and very smoothly, it's just a shame that it's not very good at the other end of the envelope - fun and feedback.Both our cars are 3 litres so why does his drive so differently?
Mine is 4 wheel drive though so spinning the wheels is not possible for a different reason.
Going steady the auto is a winner and I also understand why most like them for a daily commute but I don't agree that they offer the best of both worlds though because when pushing on or having fun the gearbox just falls flat on its backside.
Thirsty33 said:
My view too - I had similar issues to the OP and Zod's with Auto's - over 30 years driving a manual and I never found one I liked. Expensive, thirsty, never in the gear you wanted. Then I test drove an F10 with the ZF 8-speed. Game over. I'll grant you there are (a very few) times I would prefer a manual, but as someone commented, both are a compromise. But for me the ZF-8 tips the balance well in favour of auto's. It's even more economical than the manual. Things it does in an F10 that older boxes would not have done (on many cars at least):-
Holds gears going downhill to provide engine breaking without need for manual override
Does not change up to top when you de-throttle.
Has a semi-auto mode where it holds a manually selected gear while it detects steering, gradient or acceleration that it believes were the reason for your manual selection. When these cease drops back to full auto.
Doesn't hunt
Rarely holds a gear too long
Has an "ECO" mode which means you can drive it "torquey" - reduces the tendancy to overzealously downshift.
You can drive it sporty as you like in manual mode with paddles and way more smoothly than anyone can drive a manual.
Does not of course have a damned dual mass flywheel now beloved on modern manuals and destined to fail early and which cannot take the torque of modern diesels. It will of course cost the price of a small car to replace if it fails.
I would not go quite as far as Zod and say it's faultless, but I am very, very fussy.
Six pot F10's cannot now be bought with a manual gearbox, so you can see which way this is all going.
Not sure I implied it is faultless. There's always room for improvement.Holds gears going downhill to provide engine breaking without need for manual override
Does not change up to top when you de-throttle.
Has a semi-auto mode where it holds a manually selected gear while it detects steering, gradient or acceleration that it believes were the reason for your manual selection. When these cease drops back to full auto.
Doesn't hunt
Rarely holds a gear too long
Has an "ECO" mode which means you can drive it "torquey" - reduces the tendancy to overzealously downshift.
You can drive it sporty as you like in manual mode with paddles and way more smoothly than anyone can drive a manual.
Does not of course have a damned dual mass flywheel now beloved on modern manuals and destined to fail early and which cannot take the torque of modern diesels. It will of course cost the price of a small car to replace if it fails.
I would not go quite as far as Zod and say it's faultless, but I am very, very fussy.
Six pot F10's cannot now be bought with a manual gearbox, so you can see which way this is all going.
FrankUnderwood said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I also hate the ZF6 in my E90 330i
cerb4.5lee said:
I have a preference for a three pedal car so there just isn't a substitute to that for me.
I still don't get it?!
I do wonder too if my head is screwed on right sometimes! in hindsight I should have just waited for a manual to come up for sale rather than rushing in and compromising by going for the auto.
cerb4.5lee said:
I also hate the ZF6 in my E90 330i but I blame BMW for not making the effort with it to suit that engine but on the other hand it could be the best Auto in the world and I would still hate it purely because I have a preference for a three pedal car so there just isn't a substitute to that for me.
Going steady the auto is a winner and I also understand why most like them for a daily commute but I don't agree that they offer the best of both worlds though because when pushing on or having fun the gearbox just falls flat on its backside.
Those are exactly my thoughts too! With the wife driving at the weekend, I did concede and say that it's not bad if you're driving at anything up to 5/10ths, much harder than that though and all my frustrations with it are played out.Going steady the auto is a winner and I also understand why most like them for a daily commute but I don't agree that they offer the best of both worlds though because when pushing on or having fun the gearbox just falls flat on its backside.
Worse still, there's a black 56 plate RS4 Avant that's moved in about 100yds from where I live which is giving me terrible ideas, but I fear a move to the dark side will result in more understeer.
cerb4.5lee said:
bennyboysvuk said:
JagXJR said:
It seems from the OP's post this is not true!
Both our cars are 3 litres so why does his drive so differently?
Mine is 4 wheel drive though so spinning the wheels is not possible for a different reason.
I think it's probably our differing expectations of the gearbox, but I realise that it's not brilliant for the type of commute I have, which is when the car gets used most/hardest. It's great for driving grandparents around in though, when you're trying to drive very gently and very smoothly, it's just a shame that it's not very good at the other end of the envelope - fun and feedback.Both our cars are 3 litres so why does his drive so differently?
Mine is 4 wheel drive though so spinning the wheels is not possible for a different reason.
Going steady the auto is a winner and I also understand why most like them for a daily commute but I don't agree that they offer the best of both worlds though because when pushing on or having fun the gearbox just falls flat on its backside.
It could be argued that you should not be driving a 3 litre car at 10/10ths on the road anyway, but that is a different debate.
I drive both an automatic and a manual, I prefer the auto for most driving. It does not change gear itself in manual mode but stays in the gear selected (unless slowing to a stop in which case the gear it choses is correct anyway).
Perhaps we should go back to sidevalve engines and manual starting handles?
JagXJR said:
While you have a point in flat out 10/10ths driving a manual gives more satisfaction in use, an auto up to 9/10ths of the time does a better job. So yes it is the best of both worlds 90 % of the time.
It could be argued that you should not be driving a 3 litre car at 10/10ths on the road anyway, but that is a different debate.
I drive both an automatic and a manual, I prefer the auto for most driving. It does not change gear itself in manual mode but stays in the gear selected (unless slowing to a stop in which case the gear it choses is correct anyway).
Perhaps we should go back to sidevalve engines and manual starting handles?
Don't be obtuse. Some people prefer manual gear changes because they don't struggle to change gear and enjoy the additional involvement.It could be argued that you should not be driving a 3 litre car at 10/10ths on the road anyway, but that is a different debate.
I drive both an automatic and a manual, I prefer the auto for most driving. It does not change gear itself in manual mode but stays in the gear selected (unless slowing to a stop in which case the gear it choses is correct anyway).
Perhaps we should go back to sidevalve engines and manual starting handles?
You don't need to be driving at anything like 10/10ths to enjoy a manual change. It's more enjoyable in anything but docile town driving or motorway cruising.
ORD said:
JagXJR said:
While you have a point in flat out 10/10ths driving a manual gives more satisfaction in use, an auto up to 9/10ths of the time does a better job. So yes it is the best of both worlds 90 % of the time.
It could be argued that you should not be driving a 3 litre car at 10/10ths on the road anyway, but that is a different debate.
I drive both an automatic and a manual, I prefer the auto for most driving. It does not change gear itself in manual mode but stays in the gear selected (unless slowing to a stop in which case the gear it choses is correct anyway).
Perhaps we should go back to sidevalve engines and manual starting handles?
Don't be obtuse. Some people prefer manual gear changes because they don't struggle to change gear and enjoy the additional involvement.It could be argued that you should not be driving a 3 litre car at 10/10ths on the road anyway, but that is a different debate.
I drive both an automatic and a manual, I prefer the auto for most driving. It does not change gear itself in manual mode but stays in the gear selected (unless slowing to a stop in which case the gear it choses is correct anyway).
Perhaps we should go back to sidevalve engines and manual starting handles?
You don't need to be driving at anything like 10/10ths to enjoy a manual change. It's more enjoyable in anything but docile town driving or motorway cruising.
I don't struggle to change gear in traffic, doesn't mean I enjoy it. It is more enjoyable in anything other than docile town driving and motorway cruising but hey, I spend literally almost all my driving doing just that. And I suspect many others do as well.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff